EP 84 | Will Obergefell help Jeff Morgan end No-Fault Divorce?

Episode Summary: The podcast episode of Tearing Down High Places, hosted by Average Joe, Pastor Jeff, and Pastor Tim, features guest Jeff Morgan, a former pastor and missionary turned advocate against no-fault divorce. Morgan, introduced as the nation’s leading voice to end no-fault divorce, shares his personal and legal battle to challenge this system, rooted in his belief that marriage is a sacred vow before God. The discussion delves into the spiritual, societal, and legal implications of no-fault divorce, emphasizing its detrimental effects on families, children, and religious freedoms. Morgan outlines his multi-pronged legal strategy to overturn no-fault divorce laws, particularly in Texas, and calls for the church to take a stronger stand against divorce as sin.
Headlines
• Jeff Morgan’s Mission: Former pastor leads charge to end no-fault divorce, citing its conflict with biblical marriage vows.
• Sacred Vows Under Siege: Discussion highlights how no-fault divorce undermines the sanctity of marriage as a covenant.
• Legal Battle Plan: Morgan details constitutional arguments, including Obergefell, due process, and religious freedom, to challenge Texas Family Code 6.001.
• Church’s Role: Pastors urged to preach against divorce as sin and support covenant marriages to strengthen families.
• Societal Impact: No-fault divorce linked to family breakdown, child harm, and cultural shifts influenced by Marxism and the sexual revolution.
• Call to Action: Morgan seeks prayer and church support to restore marriage integrity and protect religious liberties.

Show more

Detailed Summary
The episode begins with host Average Joe introducing Jeff Morgan, who has a YouTube channel with 10,000 subscribers and a history of advocating for those affected by divorce, particularly through his previous podcast, Saving Fatherhood. Morgan’s personal experience with divorce fuels his mission to end no-fault divorce, which he argues allows unilateral dissolution of marriages without evidence or defense, contradicting the biblical view of marriage as a lifelong covenant. He references Ecclesiastes 5, emphasizing the importance of keeping vows made before God, and argues that no-fault divorce enables the state to invalidate sacred commitments. Morgan shares his current personal struggle, as his wife is filing for a no-fault divorce, which he sees as a divine opportunity to challenge the system from within. He describes the emotional and physical toll of this fight, including a recent hospital visit due to stress, and credits Joe’s prayers for helping him persevere. The discussion underscores the spiritual significance of marriage, with Pastor Tim citing Malachi 2:13-18, which condemns faithlessness to one’s spouse and highlights God’s desire for godly offspring. The conversation critiques the historical and cultural roots of no-fault divorce, tracing its origins to Marxist ideologies and the sexual revolution led by figures like Alfred Kinsey. Morgan argues that no-fault divorce, introduced in the U.S. in the late 1960s, was a social experiment that destabilized families, increased abortions, and weakened societal structures, as seen in early Soviet policies. He accuses the divorce industry of thriving on lies and exploitation, incentivized by federal funds and high attorney fees. Morgan outlines his legal strategy to challenge Texas Family Code 6.001, which allows divorce for “insupportability” without requiring evidence. His arguments include:
• Obergefell v. Hodges: The 2015 Supreme Court decision granting marriage benefits to same-sex couples implies that benefits cannot be stripped from innocent spouses in unilateral divorces.
• Due Process: No-fault divorce lacks a legally cognizable cause of action, as “insupportability” is a subjective state of mind, denying respondents a defense.
• Religious Freedom: Texas and U.S. laws, including the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, protect against laws that infringe on religious practices, such as honoring marriage vows.
• Separation of Powers: The legislature’s mandate for automatic divorce grants violates Texas’ constitutional prohibition on legislative divorces.

The episode addresses the church’s failure to confront divorce as sin, with Morgan urging pastors to preach against it and treat marriage as a sacrament. He criticizes “therapeutic separation” agreements as unbiblical and highlights cases where courts restrict religious practices, such as a pastor’s ability to teach biblical sexuality to his children. The discussion also notes the transgenerational harm of divorce, with children of divorced parents more likely to divorce themselves. Morgan calls for grassroots action, encouraging churches to petition legislators and advocate for marriage as a divine institution. He references political figures like Mike Johnson and JD Vance, who oppose no-fault divorce, and cites Alabama’s elimination of marriage licenses as a step toward reducing state interference. The episode concludes with a call to prayer and a rallying cry to “tear down” the high place of no-fault divorce, likening Morgan’s fight to historical battles against slavery.

Keywords with Hashtags
#NoFaultDivorce, #CovenantMarriage, #JeffMorgan, #TearingDownHighPlaces, #MarriageVows, #ReligiousFreedom, #FamilyValues, #BiblicalMarriage, #DivorceReform, #TexasFamilyCode, #Obergefell, #DueProcess, #ChurchAndState, #SexualRevolution, #Marxism, #ChristianAdvocacy, #SacredVows, #FamilyBreakdown, #ChildrenOfDivorce, #LegalReform

Article about Jeff Morgan’s fight in “The Federalist”
https://thefederalist.com/2025/08/18/meet-the-man-suing-to-stop-no-fault-divorce-in-texas/
Jeff Morgan’s YouTube series on – meet the man suing to stop No-Fault Divorce.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-bsI2klEGYGFDONDIhn-SO5hUQ9BQ6EC&si=a6PV8_1mEPbtl0bN
Dr. Stephen Baskerville on No Fault Divorce
https://x.com/DrSBaskerville/status/1930035979869429995

Obergefell v. Hodges, 576 U.S. 644 (2015)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/576/644/
Trustees of Dartmouth College v. Woodward, 17 U.S. 518 (1819)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/17/518/

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Full Transcript –
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All right, and three, two, one.

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And welcome to tearing down high places.

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My name's average Joe got past your Jeff and past your Tim fellas.

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Welcome to the end of August.

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I'm flying.

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Time for the here we are.

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Oh, listen guys, I got a great guest today.

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Today's my turn to introduce the guest because I know him kind of well.

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I've had him on my old podcast, which was called saving fatherhood.

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Had him on there a couple of times when I was interviewing different alien parents and people

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who went through really bad divorces and lost their kids and things like that.

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You know, the core issue was always no fault divorce.

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And I don't remember exactly how I met our guest today.

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His name is Jeff Morgan, but he is the nation's number one advocate to end no fault divorce.

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And he had this YouTube page with 10,000 subscribers.

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And he really got into the nuts and bolts of it.

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And guess what? He's a former pastor and missionary.

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And he's going to come on today and tell us how he might be the guy that actually ends no fault divorce here in the United States.

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Joe, when you mentioned this idea, it was right when I was preaching Ecclesiastes 5.

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Ecclesiastes 5 says, do not be rash to make a vow, but pay what you vow.

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And he said, Solomon said, it's better to not vow than to vow and not pay.

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And he talks about the importance of vow.

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You can shipwreck your entire life by a vow that you don't pay.

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So marriage is a vow.

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When you stand before God and man and make a statement, what you say with your words matters.

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In the presence of God and an oath is different than just an ordinary thing that is said.

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Because you're invoking the name of God, you're doing this in the presence of witnesses.

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It's a marriage oath. It's a vow.

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So we need to regard that as a sacred thing.

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Amen. And that's what that's what we want to do.

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And when order to do that and hold people accountable, we need to eliminate no fault divorce.

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Let's welcome Jeff Morgan. Welcome.

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I'm going to tear down high places.

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Thank you so much.

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Pastor Tim, Pastor Jeff, average Joe Gormley.

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Thank you so much for having me on here.

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And I want to just say one thing first.

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Joe, you have been.

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A blessing to me.

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So talk with Joe with regard to what's going on right now.

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And he said any time brother, you need somebody to pray for you.

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You just give me a call.

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And then he even said later on he said if you need somebody to pray, just text me.

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And there have been times Joe that I have felt like, you know, physically you go through things.

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And then at the same time you feel like you're standing against the fear of hell.

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Like hell is coming at you.

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And there have been times Joe that I'm like, you know, three weeks ago I was in the emergency room.

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You know, having my my my heart checked and stuff like that.

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My heart's in good condition. Everything was fine, but it was just the stress of going through all of this and, you know, it's the unknown right now.

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I do think that, you know, those who are with us are greater than those who are with them.

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I told you Joe that if if this gets turned over, I don't know that I want to volunteer for another mountain to take to take to take to take like Caleb White might do.

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It's this walk is torturous. It's howl at times, but I think we have to go through it, but I just wanted to say thank you for always being there and just being able to say listen, I'll pray for you.

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And Joe, there's been a number of times that within a few minutes after you pray, and it's like, okay, you know what we can take the next step.

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So prayer is very important. I solicit everyone's prayers, especially yes, I want to take down this evil system, but more importantly, I think is that I want to see my my marriage restored.

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As you were, as you were saying that, you know, two shall become one. They're no longer, they're no longer two there one. And when God brings you together, you're better together and to be torn apart. It's ripping out a side of you.

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I mean, that has impact, but thank you so much. Now you're welcome so much. Let me just say real quick that I want to try and summarize a couple of things for the audience and for the pastor so that they can ask you some deeper questions around this. But so here's the summary of what I've seen, Jeff.

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You know, you got divorced years ago and became a really powerful advocate and a person that has been involved in a lot of big cases across the country. I think of.

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There's so many and and how I've watched you minister of people and you did that after you went through a no fault divorce. You were trying to honor your marriage and and biblical and that didn't work out because the state will not and a lot of people don't know this is why I'm saying this.

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The state does not enforce marriage.

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After all this advocating for other people, you had no idea this was going to happen, but your wife is now filing for a no-fault divorce.

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And while what we're praying for is her to come back to you and to just throw this whole thing away, it really is no other person that I see that...

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God works in such crazy ways from our perspective that...

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Wow, why wouldn't he put you in this situation to take out no-fault divorce because you're quite frankly more knowledgeable about it than anyone I've ever met.

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Yeah, and that's been one of the things that my friends here have said the same thing.

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And I want to see some of the same thing.

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I mean, there's nobody else who can do this to the same person.

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I mean, if there is, I don't know who it is. We've been trying to go after this.

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And that's why it's very difficult because yes, I want to see a torn down.

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I never thought I would be the person from this place fighting from a position of standing in a court that I now actually can hit it head on.

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And that's what's been so torturous. But I do think you're right.

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It's easy to tell other people how to do it, but then now whether I'm in it, I'm like, you know what?

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Even when you're telling people what to do and how to go about attacking it, being in it yourself, your heart is in turmoil.

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It's just torture. So yeah, you're absolutely right, Joe.

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I think that this is, we've been studying this issue. When I say we, there's been a small group of us been doing this probably 10, 11 years.

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First, no fault of, you know, my first wife filed for no fault of worse.

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I like, no matter what I did, I could have had 20 witnesses there with me.

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In fact, I even mentioned it to the judge. I said, if I had 20 witnesses here that said you shouldn't do this, would you not, would you stop the divorce?

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And he said, well, I don't know. I don't know. He was telling, I said, the Texas family coach says that you can, you may grant the divorce. Oh, no, I have to.

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No, but if your issues with the legislature, I just bother the lot. It's horrible.

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And that's when I said that any single pastor who marries a couple at the altar and he says, you know, try to let them know until, you know, until death, do you part, you're going to be married a part of the court.

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And for life, they're actually committing perjury in a sense. They don't realize this because the state, which loves separation of church and state, except when it gets to interfere with the covenant of the church, I took a covenant marriage.

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My vows were my prenuptial. My vows were my commitment to God. I will not get divorced. Are there times that you feel like you might want to. Of course, I was up at Bible college. I remember this one, God be lady said, Jeff, I've woken up three times in my marriage.

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I've looked over at my husband. I said, why am I even here with him? But nevertheless, it's the it's, you know, God takes two imperfect people, two sinful people. And he wants to make something better out of both of them. My weaknesses, she should have strengths, her weaknesses, I should have strengths. We compliment each other.

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But he takes two sinful people and he makes them the trophy of his grace. He wants to present us to say, this is God's grace at work within two two sinful people. And this marriage is what I want to use to portray the relationship of Christ in the church. And the state says, forget about that.

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Crazy crazy. So I like the I think I think the thing that's going to edify a lot of people that are listening to this. First of all, people need to understand that their kids are at risk because I've talked to so many people Christians, loving Christians, people who love other people as as they're going to share in the gospel regularly have no idea that marriage is unenforceable.

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It really is a unilaterally torn away from you. Why is that a problem, Jeff? That's a huge problem because you know, even if you have a marriage covenant, there are some states that have covenant marriages, but the problem is not the covenant marriage necessarily or the marriage vows that we take before God.

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Why should a state be able to invalidate my vows to God? And my wife vows to God that we mutually made in the presence of many witnesses before God himself. And the state says, oh, you know what one of you wants out of it, that's okay. That is destructive. And actually if you go back historically, this is something that if you go back to the 1840s, Marx and Engels wrote about the abolition of the family, Stalin, I'm sorry, Lenin came to power and he enforced that in Bolshevik Russia. He took marriage as being

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an ordinance from the church and made it a civil institution. And therefore, if it's a civil institution, the civil state can now re-write the laws of marriage. And that's where divorce on demand started at least in the 20th century in 1917, 1918. It was so horrific what happened to society that in July of 1926, the Atlantic magazine, that bastion of conservatism wrote an article called the Russian Effort to Abolish Marriage.

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And what they were talking about is eight years into no-fall divorce. The results were so devastating that they were talking amongst themselves to what do we do?

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And abortions were skyrocketing. They didn't really have abortions as much like that. And then it was just so many things that Stalin eventually had to reverse some of these policies because the communist society had no raw material to work with as far as with the kids of concern.

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And we've seen that in our own society. 55 years plus of no-fall divorce. And people blame Reagan. And I don't know if that's 100% accurate. Yes, he signed it. But remember the people that were telling him to sign no-fall divorce into legislation, they were lying to him. The entire divorce industry thrives on lies.

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They thrive on exploitation. They thrive on the destruction of the family. And they also thrive on the destruction of religious vows.

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So I've said that obviously Marx and Gauls Lenin, they were very atheistic and stuff like that. They were a big influence here. But the other influence that we don't think about is Alfred Kinsey and Kinsey and sexual revolution.

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So you have communism totalitarianism that wants to destroy the family, want to destroy the family, destroy society, destroy the family, destroy society. And then you can reshape it in a communism.

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But they forgot while I have no more materials to work with, right? But then also Alfred Kinsey, sexual pleasures above everything. He was a pervert. Sexual pervert, he did his studies that should be completely discredited.

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We have this so-called Kinsey in science, which should be eliminated. In fact, there are some people that are trying to get laws that are based on Kinsey eliminated. But what he also did too, he was trying to advocate against marriage. So we have two strong cultural forces.

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Remember, Satan does not come as an evil person a lot of times. He comes as an angel of light. And then sexual freedom, you being oppressed, and you're going to have this freedom.

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They put the angle of the care in front of you, but it has created devastation in our society. So between Marx, Engels, Lenin, and then Alfred Kinsey, the sexual revolution, and the church being silenced or silencing its own voice.

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Jesus is very explicit about no-fault divorce. Lord, can we divorce our wives for any reason, for no reason whatsoever? No. From the very beginning, it was not done this way.

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God created men and women. For this Kasha, the man, leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife. The two shall become one.

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What, therefore, God has joined together, let no man tear us under and not no man, no state, no court, no judge.

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And we have Christian judges saying, well, I can't do anything. What can I do? Well, you could stand up. You could be a Christian.

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And you could also be a pastor that don't talk about this. We have to call the divorce sin. It's listed in the Sermon on the Mount for crying out loud. Jesus is talking about the divorce on the Sermon on the Mount after murder and adultery comes the divorce.

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So we have underestimated. We have not preached against the evilness of this. And when we have a way to get out of something, we tend to use it rather than to work through things.

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Wow. Can I add to that Malachi chapter 2 verses 13 to 18?

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Absolutely.

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And this second thing you do, you cover the Lord's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand.

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But you say, why does he not?

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Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.

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Did he not make them one with a portion of the spirit in their union?

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And what was the one God seeking?

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Godly offspring.

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So guard yourselves in your spirit and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth.

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Amen.

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Amen.

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And that's the lack of enforcement, the lack of ability to enforce that is the problem.

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And you let me add something else here too, because in the Jewish cultural testament,

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a wife was not allowed to file for divorce legally.

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That's why it's written to you, man.

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Do not divorce the wife of your youth.

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So now this women's equality movement in order to make things equal.

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It's not telling people husband's men on your covenant vows what we've tried to say is now women can do it to men.

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So we have now equalized sinfulness, and that's the idea.

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We have to give women equal rights.

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And the thing is that if there's a whole lot of issues with this thing here.

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I was listening to this Jewish lady said, well, if you don't want to get rid of no fault of what,

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you should all become Jewish because in the Jewish religion, only a man is allowed to divorce the wife.

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And I'm like, the thing is even, I don't know if it still works out way in the Jewish religion or not,

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because the state has basically said anybody for any reason.

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For no reason, you can make up a reason.

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You get, perjury is rampant in family court.

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All you have to do is a ledge in supportability. No facts are needed.

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In fact, in our text family code, that's what it says.

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Without regard, it basically no facts are necessary.

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All you have to do is a ledge in supportability.

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Nobody knows what it means.

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There's discord or conflict of personality such that the legitimate ends of the marital relationship

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cannot be achieved. What does that mean?

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Nobody knows. Actually, that's a religious determination or ideological determination.

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Which is one reason why this one just as stuck in 2001 said there is no possible way to reconcile the statute with our Texas Constitution and Texas jurisprudence.

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So marriage is created by God.

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And that's what we have in our case law ordained by God.

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And yet the state looks at it in a Marxist, Kinsey, and Viewpoint.

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Like it's just the temporary contract. We have redefined marriage.

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We always talk about, well, you know, same sex marriage. We redefined marriage by saying marriage is okay to be temporary.

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Marriage is just dating. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. It's it. Yeah. It's dating. And we're sending people in the day.

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And I think it would be really great to get into like, what, how you're going to take it down? Because we're about halfway through already.

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Imagine that's not fine.

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I didn't realize that's a fact.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Before you get to the solution, tell me a little bit more about this.

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Kinsey and guy.

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So where what countries from and how did he get influence? What's his deal?

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So Alfred Kinsey was a hero at the Kinsey reports, you know, we talked about men and women and their sexual

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proclivities and stuff like that. What happened is he took a population.

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I think for women, he interviewed prostitutes and for men, he interviewed like sexual

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proprimals and priests and this was during one of the wars. So he couldn't get real men.

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He had proprimals and then and he used to, I mean, he, the stuff that he did with kids, he was a sexual

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proprimals. He should have been put behind bars. He would masturbate little, little kids because he wanted to see

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like at four months old and these kids have orgasms. How many can they have? And this is what he was doing with the sexual

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research. He actually was providing this so-called science behind it that he

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had to become the pamphleteer for with playboy and other things like that. So he had up,

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Kinsey was the one who said, kind of everybody's on a sexual spectrum. You know, it's not male and female,

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it's you can move on the sexual spectrum like we have today. The people can say, well, I identify as a man today,

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I identify as a woman tomorrow, I identify as maybe a cat some other day. You know, you have this whole,

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whole spectrum of things. But Kinsey is, his laws will design to help increase sexual promiscuity,

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because everybody thinks this way. Everybody wants to have a fair, everybody has these secret fantasies and stuff like that.

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And Kinsey, he was a horrible person, he was a sexual pervert, he should have been probably in prison or whatever,

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because of the stuff that he did. But he influenced the sexual revolution. So, and what he did with Kinsey,

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they started to change biblical laws. They were biblical laws in place, and I wish I would have had this printed off here,

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but they had biblical laws in place. And because of the influence, not just of Marxism, but of Kinsey as well,

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they started to give more rationalist to why these laws no longer apply today.

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And so you look at, like I said, first you have Playboy, and then you have Penthouse, and then you have Hustler,

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and then you have Who knows what at this point? Bestiality, all sorts of things. You know, you can go back to Alfred Kinsey,

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and his philosophy at least provided a lot of the justification of these things. Like, you know, this is just a rational behavior of a man or a woman.

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But you know that if you're interviewing people from a sexual deviant population, that's not the normal population.

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That's a sexually deviant population. So they take sexual deviant scene, now they're opposing it on society.

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But then of course, you know, well, you can't just be tied down to one person. You might want to have multiple people.

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You might want not just the couples, but the thruples and you know, if you start justifying on biblical behavior.

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So between Marx and Kinsey, this is what's been attacking marriage.

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We always got to ask by what standard do you name that thing sexual deviancy?

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Because our culture that has no objective standard is constantly redefining what is and is not moral.

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And they have nothing. Right? So sexual deviancy means abandoning your spouse.

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That is sexual deviancy and I think that's how Jesus defines it.

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Yeah. And you know, and I'm glad you mentioned that Joe because when I grew up, my parents were divorced.

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I remember right around my 16th birthday, horrible.

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That's my birthday present, right? That my parents were divorced.

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I remember when the letter came and you know, it's what they are to read around that whole time and everything.

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But you know, we were the oddity.

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Social pressure was to keep families together, not to destroy them.

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And now you hear people like, well, maybe she just needs to be fulfilled. Maybe she needs to find herself.

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And the vow is the covenants that we make to God. Me nothing. Well, and even pastors, I hate to say this because the church is not the same.

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But I want to seek help from absolutely horrible. Like this is an option.

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It's not a command of Christ. It's not that brother or sister, you've made this vow.

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You should be honoring your vow. You should be honoring God. You cannot be pleasing God while you're divorcing your husband or your divorce in your wife.

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And then somebody can say, well, I'm divorcing my husband and divorcing my wife. And I'm a strong Christian.

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No, you're a disobedient Christian if you're a Christian because it also says that, you know, by divorcing the person that you read in Malachi, that that's not of God's spirit.

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So is God's spirit living in the person? That's a question that maybe others can answer.

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But, you know, we cannot justify these types of behavior.

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Everything is we know. It's through many tribulations and trials that we enter the kingdom of heaven.

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And sometimes it comes to us in marriage. Sometimes it comes to us externally.

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But the thing is that our commitment first informs us to Christ and to our commitment to Him as well and our vows to Him.

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And then our spouse should be part of that growing process.

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But divorce will just destroy, destroy. It's a blake that might you've lied to God and think it's going to be okay.

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All right. So, you should have pushed them down. Tell us, where's the hope on the horizon? What can we fight for? What can we do?

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So, in my petition, what I've done here, and because of course it is a secular court, and my secular, I would also say, anti-god court.

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So, the secular court, the anti-god court, is going to grant the divorce no matter what.

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And what they'll tell you is that we have no option. Well, there's a lot of things actually we're fighting it from a constitutional level.

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So, I can tell you that this is the direct attack to Texas Family Code 6.001, which is our no-fault divorce statute.

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The statute enables petitioners to obtain a divorce for any reason, for no reason, they can make up a reason.

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The respondent doesn't have to know the reason. There is no defense. This is a statute with, it's a lawsuit. First off, we need to remember, it's not, oh, they're going to help me through the divorce process.

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No, this is a lawsuit. You're being sued. And you have no defense. Can you name any other lawsuit like that? Do you have any, I mean, is there any lawsuit that just the moment that you're alleged to have done something, your guilty?

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Maybe if you don't Trump over something, I don't know. But I mean, the reality is that when you're alleged to have done something, you should be able to prevent a defense.

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That's what do processes to be meaningfully heard. There is no defense in the issue of unilateral forced, no-fault divorce. And by the way, be, be, be, continue further.

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This was an issue that we had in our Texas GOP platform in 2020. I got the platform changed. It's been around for 15 years. I think it was that we're calling upon the legislature to rescind no-fault divorce.

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I put one word into that platform to rescind unilateral no-fault divorce. Because if you have a contract, and I'm not saying I'm not going to comment on this, but if you have a regular contract, usually you can sue for material breach of the contract, which would be some type of a fault.

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And usually there's an opportunity to rectify or remedy that fault, or you can get out of the contract by mutual consent.

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So what I wanted to do by putting in the word unilateral, would you say that it's a specific type of no-fault divorce because this gives the respondent who in many, many instances says, wait a minute, I don't agree with this.

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And he's watching me interrupt real quick. I think first of all, I think the end seven would support that as well.

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When it says to allow let if the unbelieving spouse chooses to leave, let them go, but it should be up to the person who is being violated, who's who, who the person that's being harmed by the breaking of a covenant.

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Because we're not talking about something that was easily slapped together and easily pulled apart when you pull something apart like that, everything breaks.

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So that person has the right by God to say you can go or not go and what you can go with, what you're allowed to think.

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If they take anything, it's either theft or it's grace and they can give as much grace as they want.

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Absolutely. The thing with first Corinthians 7, which I think people don't recognize, is that even in the context that people abandon their spouse, the concept as I understand it was more so that you had two people, the gospel was preached.

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One of them became a believer, the other one didn't. So I mean, it is completely unthinkable in Jesus' mind that two people that are walking with him would be divorced.

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Now, when you have two unbelievers, one person converts and it tells the believing spouse, well, if your unbelieving spouse wants to stay with you, they're not divorced him. They're not divorced her.

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But if this person wants to leave, you're not in bondage, God has called us to peace.

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And I mean, there's a lot of variations among different denominations, religions, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants like that.

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How that gets played out. But again, it's a situation where two people have come to Christ, or one person has come to Christ, the other one has not.

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This is not written for believer and believer.

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We are the, the repressor, our marriage represents the love of Christ, the relationship of Christ and the church.

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And your wife still claims to be a believer.

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A strong Christian.

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Strong Christian.

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And the church will let her get away with that.

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That is obscene.

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It's a, it's worse than obscene. Absolutely, it's obscene.

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And, and, and the, and Joe, I don't, I know if we've talked privately about some of the things that these people have said.

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It is horrible.

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They, they, I'm trying to, I'm trying to answer the question that also I'll give back to this too, but they gave me this thing called the therapeutic separation agreement.

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That they wanted me to sign and I'm like, what is this therapeutic separation agreement?

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Well, it was a godless document.

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And I wrote back, I said, in good conscience, I cannot and I will not sign this.

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And the very first condition that says that the husband and wife should get together and talk about this separation.

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It can be a time of great blessing.

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First Corinthians says, just the opposite.

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You know, you marry, you, you marry each other.

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You're one.

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And now they're taking, well, we're going to split you apart as to, there may be some instances where this is valuable.

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If innocence is of abuse or addiction or adultery or something, something like that, I can see that.

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But I also said to nowhere in the document did it talk about the purpose of God for marriage.

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You know, there are covenant separation agreements.

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They said nothing like that.

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And they said, well, if you can't agree on the separation, it shows that you're in trouble.

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I'm like, what?

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And then in the third paragraph, it changed the word from therapeutic separation to temporary separation.

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Do you believe in temporary marriages too?

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Do we have trial marriages?

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What is this?

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Let me include the pastors here and ask them because I've talked to them both about this before.

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I know what they're going to say.

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Guys, how do we reconcile Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 with Jesus' statement that you can't have a divorce except for sexual immorality if not to say that any separation is divorce.

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I think that's the only logical way.

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I think every other theological idea about divorce is just inconsistent.

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Yeah, I think the advice that pastors give, well, why don't you take a time of separation?

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Is basically saying here, why don't you take this poison pill in the middle of your healing?

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And hopefully this is going to work out well for you.

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Yeah, nobody's jumping back in the fire.

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There's, I think it's 8% of people who go through counseling while they're separated come back together.

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Because you're not jumping in that fire.

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You got to fight through the pain and together.

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If you're separated, you're not, you're not, it's not going to, you're not going back to that pain.

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You just won't.

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So Jeff, tell us, you know, I mean, tell us some of the ways that you're going to be fighting this.

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I think one of the most, and I teased this out to a bunch of people at Cornerstone Church.

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So we got to cover it.

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One of the things I think is amazing is you're going to take one of your 12 ways to attack no fault divorces to use a burglifel against the folks that pushed a burglifel down our throat.

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Tell us about that.

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Sure, back in 2015, we had the oburgifel the hottest decision.

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And basically what they did.

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Now remember, this is another activist judge stuff where the active because people that not want same sex marriage, I'd voted it down again and again and again.

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So oburgifel goes to the Supreme Court and then Justice Kennedy talks about, you know, federally at a federal level, well, basically the status of marriage bestows a constellation of benefits upon you.

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And how can we deprive two people of the same sex who are who want these benefits?

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How can we deprive them of these benefits simply because of the same sex?

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So when I read that, I talked with a friend that I've been working with about this a long time ago, I said, look at what they've said here.

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If they keep oburgifel, they have to get rid of no faulty force because what they're saying is we cannot deprive these people of these federal benefits.

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And there's also state benefits. There's one law professor out of South Carolina.

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I think her name is Marsha Zug, but she said that marriage bestows upon you over 1150 federal benefits and additional state benefits.

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So if these benefits, we can't, I mean, we really can't deny two people who love each other these benefits.

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How can you take them away from me? I am a legally innocent man.

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And you can be simply because my wife or when it happens to women because trust me Joe, there's a lot of people, a lot of women that are calling me that are saying, you know, we will fight for you because they've gone through what they've seen the destruction they live in pop whatever has taken place.

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And these benefits are being deprived.

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They're innocent people. And why is this a lot? Now I would say if a person wants to change his or her marital status, I don't know how you do this necessarily go ahead and do it yourself.

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But the person left behind should at least be have those benefits still because you're taking away benefits from the person for no reason. That is unjust.

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Now the best thing of course from is to you know people need to have discipleship. I mean really this is not an issue of counseling. Sometimes it is. I'm going to say sometimes counseling will help.

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But it's an issue of teaching people radical discipleship. We're supposed to love our enemies. The person that we've married for the most part we married because at one time we said I love this person.

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I'm going to spend my life with this person. This person is chosen by God for me. And now they're going to become you treated them as worse than an enemy. You treated them like an unbeliever and you're claiming to be a believing a strong Christian.

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That's completely inconceivable. But Obergi fell yes. I said the moment I saw Obergi fell I said look at this. If there's if there are you want that we cannot deny two people of the same sex these benefits.

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Then how is it that they can keep no fault divorce unilateral divorce because they're getting given people the same sex and they're going to take them away from people that have made a commitment to be married simply because one person says I think the marriage is insupportable. I'm going to leave.

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So that's how we try to flip that's but yes, I do have that in here is one of the arguments for sure.

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But there's another issue too and I mean being as we're speaking with you with with you with you gentlemen here, you know, we have a conscience class in the Texas Constitution that the government shall not compel us to act against our religious conscience.

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That's article one section six of our Texas Constitution and it says in no matter whatever nothing.

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But we also have I don't know if you remember but back in 1993 there was the Religious Freedom Restoration Act with the sponsored by those conservative stalwarts Ted Kennedy and Chuck Schumer and signed into love by Bill Clinton.

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You know, so these great conservative these right wing conspiracy. I'm sorry. I shouldn't be getting under this right now.

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But we love mockery here. Yeah.

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And in fact, I'm actually using this in a different scenario right now because that protects us against federal involvement. But then in that I think it was 1998, 1999 they said this became a state issue. So Texas passed its own version.

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The Texas Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which is codified in our Texas government code, 1,100.003.

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And basically what it does is that you can take a look at any law past current future. And because if it infringes upon my real, the government has to show a compelling interest why this statute allows them to violate my religious pre practices, my religious freedom.

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And as a Christian, I believe that my religious marriage is to honor God. I am to learn how to love my wife, serve my wife, pray for my wife, forgive my wife.

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She's supposed to learn as well various things in her role, you know, toward me.

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And we have duties. And you know, the other thing is that as a pastor, you can be eliminated from a position simply by going through a divorce.

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There was a friend of mine who just said, you know, my sister divorced this one man. He was a godly pastor, never swore anything like that.

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In the moment they got divorced, he lost his job. And then if you look at 1 Timothy chapter 3, elders are supposed to be the husband of one wife.

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Do you can just supposed to be the husband of one wife?

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Again, I understand that there's various interpretations. But you can go back to Apostolic cannons away before that.

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They basically talk about the necessity of being, I would say the husband, it says the husband of one wife.

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And it doesn't completely address the divorce issue, but if you are divorced, you either have to remain celibate or if you remarry, you lose the privilege of serving certain offices.

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And people can lose their office. The other thing is that has happened down here is that we've had pastors that have gone through this and the courts will tell the pastor, you can't pray or any religious person, you can't pray with your children.

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You can't register to your children that talks about this happened with a Jeff Younger case.

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He was not allowed to teach his children about biblical sexuality because his ex-wife, well his unknowled wife supposedly, said that their son wanted to be a transgender.

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So when Jeff would dress the boy like a boy, you know, do boy things with him, which is what he wanted to be, read the Bible with him.

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He was not allowed to read about sexual sexuality and we've had other people that a pastor could not take their child to work on a take your child to work day because he was a pastor of a church.

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So this is a great violation that our government is voicing upon us on our religious liberty, on our religious freedoms.

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And the government has no authority to do that furthermore, the courts have to define what is legitimate nature of the miracle relationship.

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And this is what happened back in 2001 when Justice Kim Thompson Frost said, this is a religious issue.

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The courts are not allowed to rule on this issue.

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Therefore, this statute is unconstitutional from the get go.

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And she was this loan dissent, it was a three justice panel.

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I think the one justice kind of used some circular logic to get to his position.

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But I think that she set it up for us in the future to actually say, look it.

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You have to use these arguments to get rid of the stuff.

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And so this is a very big issue because can you imagine that two churches go to the court and say,

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well, we believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.

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They believe in a post-tribulation rapture.

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This one doesn't believe in any rapture at all.

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Of course, we want you to decide what's the best thing.

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That's a great analogy.

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Wow, that's an amazing analogy.

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Yeah, but the thing is the instant and Texas law, Texas jurisprudence says marriage as an institution ordained by God, founded by God, created by God.

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So if it's created by God, why can the state tell us, regulate that?

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Wow.

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Wow.

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So divorce is basically a disaster for everyone involved.

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Oh, it's you're the one that initiates a divorce.

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You're outside the will of God and you're rebelling against God.

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If you're the one that gets divorced, you're probably getting your heart broke and your heart ripped out and you're being separated from what God has put together.

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And then if you have children in the mix, I have to go on a limb and say it's probably terrible for children.

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Now I have a friend who says it worked out a little bit because both of their parents, they got divorced, started buying them extra stuff and tried to like win his love.

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But really what would have been better for for any child involved is just to have both parents in the home.

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Absolutely. And you make a very good point here.

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There's some lady in a forget her name, but she wrote the two parent privilege.

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If there's a website called them before us and it talks about the advantage of having both parents and that judge who just died, Judge Frank, the guy that everybody used to love to listen to because he was a very compassionate judge.

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He was talking about how he came from Italy and they're growing up and they didn't have much, but he was so rich because he had both parents and both parents in the home.

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This is another part of the divorce ideology that has been forced upon children to say that children are resilient. Children will be happy if their parents are happy.

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That is an absolute lie. It has silenced children. Children of the worse should be speaking up, but the thing is they've been shamed for someone.

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It's like we can't really talk about this. Everybody tries to say that well, you're supposed to be strong. No, the parent should be strong for the children.

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Because the children haven't learned to deal with their own sin nature yet. Right? So they're going to manipulate the single parent, especially the single mom. They say now that there's new studies that come out and say a single mom is the most dangerous environment for a child because she's more easily manipulated because she's more emotional than the single father.

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Right? Whereas at the early years, you got to have the mother, right? You got to have the mother, but after you get past that certain point, then you got to have the father. The real thing is we need them both all the time.

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We need them both separate that at all is just a wicked sin that the government needs to be called out for their participation in this.

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Right? And that's absolutely true. And the other thing is when you mentioned the thing with a single mother, people said, well, you know, maybe it wasn't abusive father. Statistically speaking, a child is much safer with a father than with a mother's new boyfriend or fiance or husband.

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I was talking to our friend Amaro who lives in Malawi and he says every time there's a divorce, the father automatically gets the children for that reason because they find that it's unsafe for a child to go into another place.

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And then with the wife because she starts marrying or you know living with men that aren't safe. And you know what? That limits the divorce rate by a lot.

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Yeah, so that's your very very interesting point there because right now our state incentivizes divorce. It incentivizes divorce.

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Number one, if you filed for divorce, you always get it. Then they say well at least get 50% of the stuff. So I if I leave the company that I work for, I don't get to take stuff with me.

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I have to return my stuff. And we have these so called community property laws, which only makes sense in a Christian context. I mean, they were there were some historical reasons for this.

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But now what they've taken again, they've taken this practice that some Christians help to to set into place, but they've taken Christ out of it.

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Community properties for the community. If you're leaving the community, why do you take anything? Because the community is the marital community.

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And that's what the divorce attorneys know that they can find over these things. And by the way, your children are part of that marital community somehow.

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They get a stranger will tell you when you can't see your children, when you can't, and if you violate those orders, you may end up in jail.

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Or if you have to pay to have somebody else watch your children called child support, when you're a fit and willing and able person to do something, they can put you in jail for that.

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And the state also gets incentivized with federal money under the Title 4D program.

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So the state is not an unbiased, objective, neutral entity in the soul thing. They also know that they can collect money from this stuff.

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And that's what they've done. So they've oppressed people. They've exploited them. And the attorneys that are involved in the stuff charge sometimes $500 an hour, $250, whatever.

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I mean, a lot more than what an average person makes by far. And they know how to, I've talked with paralegals. I said, oh yeah, you know, the divorce attorneys would get together and they say, I'm going to do this, you're going to do that.

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And they would they would negotiate on how to basically exploit the parents finances. And so what you walk in, and I don't know if this is in Texas, but New Jersey, you walk in, you have to fill out a case information statement, whether you're the divorcey or you're the one calling for the divorce or the other person is that that case information statement is basically an income statement and a balance sheet.

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Everything you make now and in the future and every asset you have. And then the they they measure you and they say, oh, you got this much fight in you and they drain it off.

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Right. And Joe, let me say the first thing about that too, is that not a violation of our fourth amendment under the US Constitution?

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Of course.

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As a legally innocent individual.

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But other areas in our culture and our government, we've destroyed the fourth amendment in so many ways with the Patriot Act.

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And you know, I mean, Pastor Jeff's probably signed off a million vaccine vaccination letters to people trying to get exemptions.

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Yeah.

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And you know, our culture doesn't care about that.

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