ARRB Interviews Undertaker JOSEPH HAGAN -Kennedy entered in Shipping Casket,left in Hagan's Mahogany

5/17/96 interview, courtesy Matt Douthit. Dont know where he got this but apparently it wasn't posted anywhere before. Hagan was the lead mortician from Gawler's.
https://www.youtube.com/@mtdouthit1291/videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvomaR-9Rnw
It was Douthit, along with Alex Harris and Will O'Halloran, who brought Doug Horne the ABC(?) tape and photos that prove conclusively that the third casket entry, with the Honor Guard/Join Casket team, happened in the NEW MORGUE, and another one that shows Hagan's mahogany casket being delivered to the new morgue. Also shows Adm Galloway as the A-Driver/passenger seat, not the man at the wheel, and HOrne explains the misunderstanding from Lifton's reading of a WaPo article. GALLOWAY, I've noted, is the one who told Burkley to tell the techs or docs to "Christmas Tree" the organs, pull them all out at once instead of individually to analyze, this is significant in the coverup, and there was something else, I wish I could remember that he ordered to do or not do that was very significant. Also, Custer told ARRB he would've been murdered in Calloway's office if he didn't sign the secrecy pledge. Dennis David, however, didn't sign it and wasn't murdered, but David didn't see what Custer saw.
HAGAN did not see the shipping casket personally but heard second hand, and it's on their report. I haven't listened to this carefully yet, but as I understand, HAGAN arrived before incisions were made, maybe together with Robinson, left and returned with the mahogany casket when the embalming and restoration was almost over and helped transfer Kennedy into it. Ostensibly the bronze casket's broken handle (in AF1? or as per other reports, after arrival to Bethesda?) was the reason they buried him in a new casket. I've read that there is some dispute over whether Robinson or Hagan really brought the casket but have not looked into it.
Chapters/'Key Moments':
3:45
Occupation
4:50
Pro Education& Training
40:37
Stage of the Autopsy
44:50
The Embalming
50:33
Arterial Embalming
1:18:03
A Navy Ambulance is Not a Hearse
1:20:10
Kenedy Funeral
1:36:11
There any Damage Visible to the Hair or the Scalp
1:40:21
CallSheet
2:08:07
Personal Remarks
2:17:13
Extensive Damage to Kennedy's Head
2:20:29
Observations of the Right Side of the President's Head
***************
AUTO-Transcript:

0:02
god had mentioned this to mr holland i wanted
0:08
you gentlemen to understand where we were coming from in terms of providing you with
0:15
our records of the president
0:21
it's not that there's anything in this file it's going to be all that enlightening over
0:28
and above a basic funeral director file as we would do on
0:33
any other case okay
0:38
but we felt knowing the kennedy family
0:44
having dealt with them twice in a very positive way that
0:49
they got their eyes and crossed their keys and they are very very
0:56
particular about
1:01
whatever they want done they want it done and they want it done the way they have
1:07
directed so we felt that it would be in our best interest
1:14
to go ahead and let you subpoena the records provide you copies of the records as i
1:20
told mr horn here is the original file you are more than welcome in this room
1:26
to look over this file as you see fit but we would like to retain our original files
1:34
i have given you here a complete set of what's in here
1:41
and this for as subpoenaed and i just want you to understand that the
1:48
reason being we felt it would be in our best interest to have a subpoena even though you had
1:56
requested the file we were not trying to be difficult about it we just want that as a matter of record
2:02
we understand that and we certainly respect your uh professional discretion uh in the way that this has been handled
2:08
thank you since we're on the tape now what i'd like to do is i'd like to uh for the record state the names of the
2:13
people that are present here and then we'll uh start our conversation uh we're at the arrb
2:20
offices and present for this conversation are tom samelock
2:26
david marwell jeremy gunn and douglas horn i'm tim ray of the arb staff
2:33
um and laurie w-r-a-y i'm sorry
2:39
okay and let me begin just by asking you to
2:46
state so we can have it on tape by your full name joseph e
2:52
hagan h-a-g-a-n and as you remarked a minute ago you
2:58
understand that you're here this is going to be a cooperative and i
3:03
think cordial conversation but uh you're complying with a subpoena and you remarked about
3:10
your concern for professional discretion even under the circumstances of the subpoena but you understand that
3:16
we did present this appearance i understand that and i understand the significance of
3:22
our conversation yes sir if i could just add one thing the date is may 17th 1996.
3:27
oh good sir let me ask uh and uh as i as a
3:33
remark before we went on the tape uh occasionally we're gonna ask questions here it's just simply for uh getting it established someone who reads the
3:39
transcript later without any other knowledge these these uh sort of biographical items will be useful i
3:44
understand that sir if you would state your occupation i'm a licensed
3:51
funeral director with joseph
3:57
gola let me spell that for you the firm name for record
4:02
g a w l e r apostrophe s
4:09
sons incorporated and where are they in
4:14
5130 wisconsin avenue northwest washington dc
4:26
216-4116 and how long have you been with gomer 48 years
4:33
that's a that's really a long time sure is let me inquire about you and i'm also
4:40
president of joseph rollerson's in the coffee but i am i wanted for the record
4:45
the fact that i am a licensed funeral director in the district of columbia let me inquire about your
4:51
professional education and training um most of my professional
4:57
uh education was school of hard knocks when i came out of the marine corps in world war ii
5:04
um i served my internship and uh
5:13
first job when i came out of the marine corps was in maryland in silver spring maryland
5:19
with the firm which is no longer there and
5:24
i served my internship there and i had before getting out of the marine corps
5:31
put it filled out and and visited and had an
5:38
interview with the gullah family at that time about going to work for gal i heard so many nice things about their
5:44
international reputation and what have you i thought well this would be a pretty nice place to work
5:50
but it was like old folks home you had to wait when somebody died or
5:56
retired so finally that happened and i was fortunate enough to go to work for joseph call the sons at
6:03
that time and i
6:09
finished my internship
6:14
and at the time in the district of columbia you were registered
6:21
as a licensed fundraiser and embalmer they were there was not at that time any
6:31
educational requirements over and above a high school education
6:36
at that time and of course you have to have a a clean record
6:44
this type of thing but there was no educational requirements such as they are now
6:49
and so from then on in it was pretty well the school of hard knocks
6:56
in in terms of developing my expertise and studying under some very very high
7:03
highly qualified people of the gullah and the gala staff at that
7:09
time i think it might be useful you mentioned the length of your career and yes we were talking informally before we
7:14
went on the tank that you've been you've been involved in or had some contact with with some
7:20
attending some some prominent people perhaps you would just mention a few of those that you've been involved with oh
7:26
my goodness um well we can take the john f
7:34
k funeral just recently um mrs onassis
7:41
here in washington here at all of the national cemetery jan ga hoover
7:47
president eisenhower mrs eisenhower
7:56
i'd have to refer to my notes but i can if you want me to do that no no sir i just wanted to get a good sense of all
8:04
right and and i would imagine that in the course of a career as long as yours has been i mean you've done probably
8:09
tens of thousands of uh embalmings and been involved in a number of people so
8:15
what i wanted to establish here is to serve your background yeah because the gallifying will do
8:20
1100 funerals a year
8:27
runs from about nine fifty to eleven hundred you know the death rate varies
8:34
mortality rate there is some year of the year you know the and here in washington also
8:41
back at one time well i guess when we first moved out on pennsylvania avenue
8:47
and probably around 1964 65 we were doing probably 15 or 1600
8:55
funerals a year but doing the demographics and population change
9:03
that has come down the population let me let me uh
9:10
clarify that the uh black population in the district of columbia
9:16
most afro-americans will call an afro-american funeral home and i think
9:23
there's probably about 40 40 some more black
9:29
funeral homes in the d.c metropolitan area
9:35
galas will probably maybe bury one or two black people a year it doesn't have anything to do with
9:41
discrimination i think it has to do with the fact that the black people feel more comfortable
9:47
in the environment and the black funeral home then probably the white funeral home and seven nes
9:56
but due to that population change in washington
10:02
this is a reason for example that our volume has come down to some degree
10:07
there's only three white funeral homes left in the district of columbia
10:13
and that would be gallus duvall and tacoma
10:19
funeral home let me ask you this uh on the the staff of dollars let's say
10:25
today first of all how many people are embalmers how large is the staff there
10:32
probably right now the staff and goalers is 32 people that's inclusive of
10:40
what i like to refer to is some part-time full-time
10:46
full-time part-time employees we have some receptionists for example some of those
10:52
ladies have been with us 25 years
10:57
and licensed staff is probably
11:05
fully licensed staff will probably be
11:13
i'd say 20 20. let's uh let's turn now back to the
11:19
events of 1963 and let me just follow on the previous question i take it from your comments that
11:24
gullar's even then was a well-established funeral home how large was the staff in 1963 was it
11:31
comparable to what it is now or no it was larger it was larger because back at that time
11:39
as the case volume will call us the calls that we were handling
11:45
was uh higher than they are now therefore
11:51
your staff pretty well tracks your case volume
11:57
if you're going to provide the the service that you should be providing the family
12:02
obviously you're going to have to staff your operation accordingly
12:08
and so it was do you have any estimate of how large it might have been at that time i'm going to say
12:14
1962 one two three in the 60s probably at one time
12:21
probably 70 employees and of those how many would be embalmers
12:28
probably 30 35 okay
12:34
um license funeral records and embalmers the reason i want to be definitive about
12:41
that is because of the uh the licensed funeral vector also he or
12:47
the license embalmer now it's in most states it's all one license
12:52
and uh so that individual would perform both
12:58
functions even in bomb bodies he would direct funerals an obama's usually
13:04
operating in a funeral home would not just simply embalm bothers and do nothing else easy
13:11
both sir let's turn to the events of 1963 uh perhaps a good way to begin with for
13:16
would be for you just to tell us how you learned about the assassination of president kennedy and then sort of the
13:22
events as they unfolded after that do you recall how you how you heard of that that he'd been shot yes i heard of and
13:29
heard how he would that he had been shot probably the way most of us did at that time was
13:35
television and uh radio that was the first
13:42
anchoring that we had to know the president had been shot and were you at work at that time or at
13:47
home sidewalks report and that was in the afternoon
13:55
and uh what happened then i mean uh perhaps the best way to approach this maybe would be just for you to tell the story here of
14:01
how you were notified and so forth we were notified probably at
14:08
about 4 25 pm
14:13
by the military district of washington by colonel paul miller
14:18
who at that time was chief of ceremonies and special events
14:25
of the military district of washington and uh
14:31
then as we always do on a very
14:39
dip or high profile public figure we would uh
14:45
double check that by calling back calling mtw back and be sure that that
14:51
was the case because you know you do have cranks out there who play all kind of little games
14:57
and even though we knew by radio and television
15:02
that the president had been shot we just wanted to be sure that you know this call was
15:11
real and what information did colonel miller uh communicate to you then
15:17
what was what was the nature of his request or the information the nature of of his request was that they wanted
15:24
galla to provide the necessary funeral services
15:29
for president kennedy secondly that we were
15:36
to have a hearse at andrews air force base
15:44
and at that time and they would later confirm this
15:50
wheels down of air force one at around 6 pm
15:57
when do you recall when you first talked with colonel miller whether he indicated at that time
16:03
where you would be taking the president's body would it be
16:09
there was uh if i remember correctly gentlemen this is 33 years ago now
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if i remember correctly
16:21
at first they were going to bring the president's body
16:27
to gauls and his body would be
16:33
that's all that's all we knew bring the body to golfers then keep in mind that
16:39
the the information flow of the information that we were receiving all of a sudden become consistently
16:45
changing and i think this was at a time when
16:51
colonel miller was called to the white house by sergeant tribal that's my
16:57
endless family and colonel miller being
17:03
the chief of the military district of washington totally responsible
17:08
for the state funeral but [Music]
17:14
at the time apparently they had no idea whether the president was going to be buried in
17:19
washington or whether or why they had no idea and later i understand
17:27
that the president and mrs kennedy had never
17:33
wanted to apparently talk about the funeral you know god forbid if something
17:39
happened that's my understanding and so therefore there was no plan over and
17:46
above obviously but president of the united states and state funeral is
17:51
you know could be very similar to lincoln fuel it's not very much change in the state field
17:57
but the other uh where the internment is to be and what the wishes are of
18:02
the next of kin all those things of course have to be considered and have to be discussed and here's mrs
18:10
kennedy you know in in dallas on air force one
18:16
and here they are up here trying to begin to put things together and not
18:21
really having any idea of exactly what the wishes of the kennedy family that's my
18:27
understanding so just to follow through on that with some continuity
18:33
the uh all of a sudden the troops
18:38
on a guard troop saw what they call the death watch began to show up and called us
18:45
and they sort of set up a little command post there
18:51
and uh obviously that threw the meteor in their body off what's going on here i
18:56
guess they're bringing the body to goals the troops have grown the gardens well
19:01
i have no idea whether or not
19:06
they thought that the body was going to come neglect whether they didn't or whether this they wanted to bring the
19:13
troops there and maybe prepare them for something else i i can't answer that
19:19
for you that would have to be answered by colonel miller now you mentioned that there was a sort
19:24
of a flow of information with colonel miller that is great well there was not a lot of conversation with
19:30
mello i understand at the time that
19:35
having since talked with colonel miller about this at the time first they were going to
19:42
when air force one arrived at andrews air force base
19:47
they called back and canceled our hearse at the last minute by the time we were
19:53
to go out the driveway our hearse was canceled and we were told that they were
19:58
going to use a navy ambulance but they did not indicate at that time
20:04
where they were going to take the body but the fact was that mrs kennedy by the
20:09
kennedy family felt that
20:15
the president was in the navy so therefore they'd like to use an ap ambulance to transport his remains
20:22
[Music] at that time we still had no idea where the president's body was going to go at
20:28
least we were not involved i'm sure maybe others may have known
20:34
and later talking to colonel miller the big problem was of these decisions
20:39
they were attempting to make these decisions and then the helicopter was canceled
20:47
at the time the helicopter i understand when they were talking about using a
20:52
helicopter they would use the helicopter to transport his body to naval hospital now we were not given
20:59
the information at that time that there was going to be an autopsy naval hospital or what have you i certainly
21:05
thought at the time they would probably be an autopsy but the point is we were not advised of that we have none of that
21:12
information all we would do and i'm saying first we're going to have rehearsed out there the next uh
21:18
instruction was cancelled reverse if i could just ask a question when was
21:24
the first time that you heard about the helicopter was that on the day of the assassination that come in
21:30
i did not hear about that until later and colonel miller confirmed that with me in in later conversations
21:36
we were not in other words all the apparently there
21:42
was a lot of changes i have no idea why i don't know if we
21:48
were not a part of those conversations i want to make that very clear what was going on this is sort of after
21:55
the fact and talking to colonel miller when all these crucial minutes that were
22:00
going on and here's the next of kin is on air force one on
22:05
the way back here and here they are shriver and certain
22:10
kennedy aides i guess trying to begin to put something together
22:16
when you were when the gaulers was called called and told to cancel the hearse was that colonel miller who made that call i'm pretty sure that was
22:22
colonel miller if not it would have been jack metzler at arlington national cemetery but i believe it was colonel
22:27
mello so having first been told to take a hearse to andrews and then told not to do that
22:34
right what was the next instructions uh or request that you received
22:42
probably that we were to have
22:49
our embalming team report to naval hospital
22:58
that was the next instruction to the best of my memory that we had officially
23:05
so you wound up never going to andrews air force base is that no we never did this
23:11
we know they canceled it in time and so
23:17
can you tell me then about about going to bethesda sort of what time did you depart who
23:24
went how did you go there okay
23:30
i'm let me start this way our embalming team consisted of myself in charge of
23:36
that team and the license and bombers that were with me
23:42
was thomas robinson r-o-b-i-n-s-o-n
23:51
john van housen and the spell capital v a n capital h o
23:58
e is an easy s e n
24:04
and edward strobel s-t-r-o-b-l-e
24:14
best of my recognition we went out to naval hospital
24:21
around 11 o'clock each [Music]
24:27
when we arrived at naval hospital we were escorted into
24:32
the naval medical center mog autopsy realm what have you
24:41
and they were still in the process of completing
24:48
their investigation the president's body was on the table and they were still
24:55
attending to whatever examination that they were
25:02
proceeding with they were still still at it let me let me uh ask one thing or to
25:08
clarify something uh when you went up to bethesda did you go into hearse then
25:14
and did you take with you the casket that was to be used later no the casket
25:23
when we received the instructions go out to naval hospital if our memory
25:30
serves me well at this point we went out in a private automobile
25:35
the moment came dead and the casket okay joseph galler
25:47
let me make a correction please
25:54
the embalming team went out to naval hospital they were escorted into the realm the autopsy was still ongoing okay
26:03
then we were had been instructed shortly after that that some of the kennedy
26:10
aides would come in to galas to select a casket
26:16
joseph collin and myself
26:23
received and greeted these gentlemen when they come in and they looked at
26:30
all the caskets in our selection room which at that time was about
26:35
24 i guess and
26:41
selected the solid
26:47
quarter plank mahogany casket with the velvet
26:53
interior
26:58
we understood at that time the casket which we had not seen at that time i did not
27:05
see at naval hospital and make that point right now the bronze casket that came from the president's body was in i
27:13
never saw at naval hospital they had taken him out of the casket and
27:19
have proceeded with the examination before we arrived
27:28
mccaskey was selected i drove
27:34
our hearse to naval hospital with this casket
27:42
and when we got the naval hospital the casket was taken out of our hearts and we were told right at that point
27:50
that this hearse would not be used that ms kennedy still wanted the navy ambulance
27:56
used to transport the president's body from naval hospital to these from the
28:01
white house now let me if i may again just just to clarify something you said that the
28:08
embalming team went out to bethesda yes how long before uh you went out with uh
28:15
probably an hour i'm going to say an hour gentlemen i don't distinctly remember the
28:22
time frame so i'm going to say an hour so they would have arrived there
28:28
around the embalming team i think i'm going to say around midnight okay
28:34
and then you were a little before it would have been probably after 11 o'clock to the best of my knowledge and
28:40
what time did you arrive approximately oh boy
28:49
i'm going to say shortly after midnight okay 12 30 or something like that i
28:55
don't think there's anything in here that would is indicative of the exact time we went
29:02
out there as soon as the casket selection was made by these gentlemen they did not take
29:08
that long to do it if we when you drove the the casket out there
29:15
uh where did you bring it at bethesda did you to the front to the back to do you
29:21
recall well we brought it right to this loading dock
29:28
right near the mall entrance and we brought it right to this loading
29:33
dock and of course we've been directed by the secret service way to bring it and this
29:39
type of thing security people and it was both there and and uh
29:45
taken out and then we parked our house way out of the way when you say the secret service and
29:51
security people told you where to take it uh do you mean on your arrival of bethesda they directed you where to go
29:57
that was previously they told you no i think when we arrived there we were told
30:02
that security would tell us where to go or worse to that effect and so when we got there we were directed to the
30:10
platform there at the mall did do you recall any of the people that met you when you arrived there did you
30:15
recognize anyone from mdw or anything like that i really don't now uh really i think at
30:23
that stage of the game the secret service were pretty well
30:29
telling us where to go in in terms of when we arrived with the
30:36
casket i think the the secret service were giving us direction i remember roy kellerman was out there i think clint
30:44
hill was out there but i think he was with with uh i don't know this so i should have stated for the record
30:50
whether he was with us kennedy uh but roy kellman was in person in the preparation room or in
30:58
that mall with us the whole time we were in there you mentioned roy kellerman is he someone that you knew
31:04
i had knew before roy kellman and and being in dallas why
31:09
oftentimes uh the president of the vice president or attending funerals or the
31:14
first lady or whatever yes we get to know the the agents because they'll do a
31:20
sweep even back at that time that do a reasonable sweep of the facility not as severe as they do now but yes
31:28
so we would know some of the agents not personally we just know them
31:33
by name and they identify themselves when they come out um i think what we should do now is
31:40
let's proceed to sort of what happens after you arrive at those that pick up the story there okay
31:47
i don't remember correctly and i keep saying that gentleman because that's so long
31:54
we waited when i say we our embalming team we're told to be seated in sort of bleachers
32:00
in that mog if i remember correctly and there was practically a room full of people in there i remember that too
32:07
uh they were taking pictures and things like that if i remember correctly but there's a lot of observers in there so
32:13
these are these bleachers and i'm wondering why a lot like all these people in here
32:19
so anyway we were told to uh just be seated and stay right in the area
32:27
as soon as the examination was concluded we shouldn't begin our
32:32
work had you been in the bethesda morgue before yes to get bodies out of that so you were
32:39
familiar with the layout and familiar with the room do you recall how large the room was
32:48
i'm going to say twice as big as this room
32:54
and this room pretty much and the room that we're going to remember correctly
33:00
uh i'm going to say twice to make me wider or uh and just take this one from this wall to that wall that wall and
33:07
times two so that's the best of my recollection
33:13
and when you say that that night we're in an approximate dimension which i would say this room
33:20
is approximately 30. 15 width 30 inches or 30 feet in length
33:26
so this is something like 30 by 60 for the bethesda mark yeah approximately
33:32
that's that's really um guessing i haven't been in that room since that night
33:39
when you say it was it was crowded with people do you have an estimate of how many people might have been in there at all
33:46
i don't like to do that but
33:52
i don't know i'd say with the people who seem to be involved with the examination
33:58
doctors security and whomever these people were
34:03
i guess there must have been 25 people in there if my memory serves me correctly
34:09
keep in mind i'm not paying attention to all these things you mentioned mr kellerman was he
34:15
present in the autopsy he stayed in the autopsy room in fact no one got in the door unless mr kellen wrote
34:22
that's about the size of that do you recall recognizing anyone else who was there not really
34:30
um i i did not of this
34:35
were some of the military people you recall yes i think some of more military people
34:41
in the uniform there were some uniform people the best of my records in that room
34:47
um but like no way in the world can i identify them okay
34:52
i couldn't identify them then or now uh maybe
34:58
let's go back to the story here perhaps you could be just sort of describe the atmosphere was it was it noisy was it quiet was it was it
35:05
confusing with people coming and going how would you characterize the atmosphere it was tense
35:12
keep in mind
35:19
sometime it almost seemed like it was panic time you know uh here's a young president of the united
35:25
states just assassinated and i think that was felt by the presence
35:30
that was felt by everyone in that room regardless of whom they might be at least that was my feeling
35:37
people were a little you know a little touchy
35:42
i wouldn't don't get me wrong there was not panic in the autopsy run these people were very officially
35:48
appeared to me doing their job whatever they had to do but you could sense
35:54
the tense feelings that had to be in place
36:00
and i guess a lot of it apparently had to do
36:06
with the fact of you know the president of the united states has been shot god knows what else is going to happen i
36:13
don't know but i had that that's
36:19
no question my mind was something that i think we all my people we talked about it later
36:25
those minutes and hours spent in that preparation room under that pressure
36:30
because we were anticipating what we had to do and
36:36
when we come into that room and when they were doing the autopsy
36:43
and we could see how much damage had been done to
36:49
the head of the president and knowing very well
36:55
that we were going to have to we had our work cut out for us i'll
37:02
leave it that way yes sir um in the course of uh
37:08
your career had you observed many autopsies before that time
37:14
uh yes not a lot because most autopsies are done in the hospital on institutional
37:21
environment opposed to you know doing them in a funeral home but
37:26
ever so often i have seen autopsies done in gallus where they've been ordered
37:32
a private autopsy by a family who were not satisfied maybe with the cause of death and this type of thing so
37:40
yes i've witnessed autopsies um and i've been in when we're going to make or
37:45
remove a body from a mog or the uh are the
37:50
medical examiner's office yes we'd see them during their post modern work
37:56
so it's uh it's reasonable to say that you had seen autopsies performed and as well you had
38:01
seen bodies that had autopsies performed on them more or less regularly
38:07
yes oh yeah because the high percentage of bodies that we receive then and today
38:13
have been autopsied not by a medical examiner order but the
38:18
fact of the hospitals will ask when someone dies is that they will ask
38:26
for an autopsy can speak the reason why they like to have it which is simply medical research
38:32
so therefore a high percentage of institutional deaths have been autopsied
38:38
we're going to ask you a little bit more about the condition of the president's body and his wounds and so forth a little bit
38:44
later i'm going to save that because okay we'll want to discuss that in some detail but
38:49
let's return to the the autopsy as it was as it was being performed there in the atmosphere in the room you mentioned
38:54
a moment ago that people were taking or that you saw photographs being taken
39:00
do you recall i know this may be a difficult question do you recall how many people were taking photographs
39:06
no i don't i really don't do you recall any special photographic apparatus they might have had
39:14
any lights or anything like that no i i just vaguely remember that
39:21
that there were some pictures being taken
39:27
okay the um
39:32
did you observe any x-rays being taken do you recall whether that occurred when you were there i did not now keep in
39:38
mind that the other embalmers were in the room uh longer than i was and and uh because
39:46
when i got on the scene you know there was just about ready for us to begin work
39:52
when i brought you know brother caskey down so they would have probably uh
40:01
they they definitely saw some of the autopsy procedures and what was going on in there prior to my arrival this point
40:08
i'm trying to make they weren't there a little longer than i was did you know someone named bob knudsen
40:14
he would have been the white house photographer did you know him then no i did not know mr connection okay
40:22
um let me ask you to recollect as as much
40:28
as you can and as i said we're going to ask in greater detail about the nature of the president presidents wounds later
40:33
okay just now sort of you know what was uh what stage of the autopsy were they in when you arrived and sort
40:40
of what do you recall about what they were doing really i i
40:46
when i got in there they were just about finished up cleaning up so to speak
40:53
because after an autopsy obviously there's a lot of washing and cleaning
40:59
you know cleaning the body parts off this type of thing
41:07
do you recall any conversation that the uh pro sectors
41:12
that you might have overheard anything they were talking about or anything else about no
41:19
no definitely no um
41:25
when you say they were pretty much uh finished up and uh when i arrived when you arrived um yeah what was the general
41:32
state of the president's body then i mean well i could tell that it was a
41:38
what we refer to as a full post you know there was a thoracic abdominal
41:44
you know he was open and the queenie the cranial uh
41:52
his his head was still open was the president's brain been removed
42:00
oh yes did you see the president's brain there did they have it uh
42:05
no questions right now
42:12
um for the portion of the autopsy that you observed
42:18
if you can recollect do you recall the pro sectors that were doing the autopsy if they seem to be taking instructions
42:24
from anyone in the room or anything like that
42:29
they were there was conversation and i'm uh further enough back and i you know i
42:35
wasn't trying to listen anyway but i i couldn't detect what they were saying or they were given instructions or
42:41
whether or not they were just simply talking about what they were doing that procedure and what happened no i
42:46
couldn't answer that do you recall anyone whether there was a telephone in the
42:52
room or did anyone make calls in a round or did you make any calls no i did not
42:58
we had no reason to so um again as i think you said yourself with
43:04
the embalming team you were sort of on the these bleachers there talking among yourself and just kind of
43:10
waiting your turn i think we were simply that just waiting until we were told to proceed do you recall how long you had
43:17
to wait uh before they were i don't think i waited over 20 minutes or so but the embalming team
43:23
probably went there longer than that i don't recall exactly how long they were in there
43:29
i don't know exactly what time they got out there or what time they put them in
43:36
i mean i'm not very familiar with embalming practices so this may seem like a silly question but
43:42
when the doctors finished the autopsy did one of the doctors then say okay you
43:47
can have them now or how was it that they handed them over to you well when they when they concluded
43:53
their autopsy and they said you go ahead and proceed with the preparation of the president's plan did most did the doctors remain then or
44:00
did they leave the room i think some of those people remained i don't i i really
44:05
don't remember well they did i didn't i think some of them did stay in the room
44:11
all they went in and out do you recall whether any of the doctors
44:18
assisted in repairing the president's wounds
44:23
yeah we did in terms of repairing the president's wounds we did
44:29
all of that preparation um i think maybe the skeleton the
44:35
cranial repair everything there was none of the people
44:42
helping us over and above our own staff of people i think the thing to do now then is just
44:49
have you tell us uh about the embalming uh what what what you did what had to be done what was
44:55
if i could try just one little question before that from from the time that you arrived in the room until you began your
45:02
work did the doctors do anything with the cranium at all were they
45:08
working on that or that been left alone well when you say working on the cranium
45:15
you got to keep in mind that the the cavity is
45:21
of the president's thoracic area and his abdominal area that's all
45:27
open okay and of course the heads on a head block and
45:32
this area back here where the wounds were and where the
45:39
the bone had been
45:44
broken uh
45:51
this the best of my recollection was was totally open
45:56
if i just say for the record that you're pointing to the part of your head that is in in the very
46:03
back of the head so not towards the top but no go ahead i'm sorry if the president were
46:09
standing straight up just to describe this this would be behind the ears and back yeah not towards the top of no the
46:16
frontal bone was pretty much intact there was no if my memory says me correctly we did
46:22
not have to be concerned about the frontal bone area the damage uh
46:28
our concerns were say about from this point of his hairline back when you say from this point you're indicating a
46:34
point well it's about the best of my iraq election i'm trying to say this probably right in this area
46:41
so that would be roughly at the beginning of the hairline towards the front so right above the forehead
46:47
and then how far back did the wound go here's a big problem we had with the
46:52
wound house and i've been asked this question before
46:59
and i don't like to make a statement when i am not
47:04
i feel qualified to make a statement i'm not a ballistic expert our sole responsibility in that
47:12
room that evening was to prepare the body of the president of the united states
47:18
for possible viewing or to line state and profound disposition
47:25
the experts who could and i don't know you gentlemen are all familiar with this who can relate to
47:32
how many shots were fired how many holes the trajectory all of these things
47:38
keeping in mind that you had a full postmodern examination and as far as whether or not
47:50
um um whether it was caused by
47:57
opening the head for the examination where they had to deal with the skeleton
48:03
matter that's up there in terms of the top of his head so to speak i cannot intelligently
48:10
and i would not want to say whether or not
48:17
an opening or a tear or or a an incision
48:23
was caused by what was it caused by the postmodern examination i have no idea
48:29
and i think you could ask any of our involvements and they'll tell you the same thing sure
48:35
i don't think we are qualified to respond to that question well i just i mean i appreciate that and i
48:42
think that's that's exactly right what what i would the question i asked just a minute ago is sort of from the time that
48:48
you first saw the president's body okay until you began your work was any
48:53
further uh word performed by any of the prospects no i can answer that no they
48:59
once they finished and said you go ahead and begin your preparation i do not recall any interference from
49:06
anyone the only interruptions we had was
49:13
a military person i think he was i don't think he's a bird colonel
49:18
uh kept coming in wanting to know when are you going to be through with the president of the united states and
49:25
we need to have an answer in terms of dealing with your arrival time that uh he's from
49:31
the white house and he was rather consistent with that really getting on
49:36
my nerves you don't recall who that was no i don't what do you recall what service he was
49:42
was he army or i think he was air force i may be wrong i wouldn't want to go on a record
49:49
but there was someone who apparently someone was on his back in reference to when are they going to be ready to roll
49:56
and go to the white house and uh we just could not give this man
50:01
he was someone who was coming in and out of the room where he was there all the time or yes no he was in and out
50:08
okay um i think let's pick up with the embalming okay
50:14
tell us uh what measures you took at that time
50:20
pretty much the standard procedures we'd use in terms of involving any case
50:26
[Music] his body was bombed embalmed procedurally what we call
50:33
arterial embalming and
50:39
there was sir what's that what does that mean that means that you are injecting the
50:44
chemical the embalming fluids into the arterial system
50:52
when you have a full post you have to pretty well pick up on the arteries which have been
51:00
cut in terms of dealing with the postmodern because your whole circulation system is
51:05
you know disturbed when the autopsy is done
51:14
there was nothing unusual about that procedure we would have
51:19
that i that i can recall we had no real
51:24
serious problems a circulation in terms of getting the various fluids
51:31
into the extremities there was no problems
51:37
we have to use plaster paris to sort of rebuild
51:45
the bone structure back up and you know give it support when you say that you're talking about the skull the damage up here
51:53
so we fill that with plaster paris and uh
51:59
then begin the restoration you know the suturing and the ceiling our concern was
52:06
that if the body was going to lie and stayed at the east room which we knew at that stage of the
52:13
game it was and was going to lie and stay at the rotunda is that cassette can be opened
52:20
and one of the big problems you have when you have a damaged
52:26
cranium like this is the fact with that body lying in the opposed is
52:31
it going to be i don't care how good a job you do in the suturing or the ceiling
52:37
that there's a possibility of a minor leakage and
52:43
needless to say that that was a concern to us uh my god you know here's
52:51
if you have the calling at the white house which of course we knew would be restricted calling but you can lie and stay at the
52:57
rotunda and if they would a decision had been made to open the casket
53:03
um god forbid you know we had some leakage which would penetrate the pillar and
53:09
obviously could be seen and we were quite concerned about that even though i knew i had professionals
53:15
with me that could do everything in the world possible to avoid such a
53:20
situation there was a possibility that that could happen and we did have some sincere concerns about
53:27
when actually clarification at that time mr hayden were you the supervisor of this involvement team
53:35
yes they didn't need much supervising but i was the person in charge of it
53:40
we're very very capable staff of environments
53:46
when you said that uh you they packed plaster of paris in the skull and then tried to get into it support the bone
53:52
structure from the damage of the of the the the autopsy itself
53:59
and also from uh whatever the gunshot wounds had caused again i i
54:06
realize that i'm uh acknowledging my own ignorance about this when you put the plaster of paris in uh does it have any
54:13
stiffening material yeah it sets you're gonna work rather fast with it and it sets up and then that gives
54:20
support you know total support and then you would then
54:25
pull the flesh and and and then begin to suture would they take this plaster of paris
54:31
and fill the cranial cavity with it or would they just try and make a shell no just so you fill the areas with it as best you could
54:38
to give support could i go back a couple of the steps and i just
54:45
asked how much of the scalp if annie was missing at the time that you started
54:52
the embalming process i don't truthfully remember any scalp
54:58
being totally missing now that's once again gentlemen 33 years back i
55:06
just don't remember that i remember we had to suture some very fine suturing
55:12
which is not unusual on any autopsy case i don't remember a lot of scalp being
55:18
missing i don't could i try a related question then how
55:24
much of the the bone from the cranium was missing if
55:29
any i don't recall best of my knowledge any fragment of
55:35
bone being missing that would be that i i that i remember
55:41
that was a problem for us then if i try one other question in terms of how of the dimensions or the
55:50
diameter of the hole in the cranium approximately what was
55:56
the size of that
56:04
the side what are you talking about the size of the hole in the head
56:12
and and where where was the hole as best you could describe that
56:17
the best of my recognition if my memory serves me correctly i'm
56:24
going to say right about like in this area i may be very wrong you're pointing to the uh
56:31
left back in this area yeah left rear portion of the of the
56:36
skull behind above and behind the left ear best of my recollection and
56:42
could you say let me ask you this question could you put your fist in the hole or was it larger than that well keep in mind this
56:48
is open now that this is when we saw the president's
56:53
body all of this is totally open when you say that you're indicating the entire background that is correct in
56:59
other words they had did the postmodern examination i guess and examined all of this area
57:05
and the uh all of the bone matter and tissue and everything else because
57:12
i assume that was the prime focus is to find the extent of the damage and
57:19
what did what what i'm trying to say to you which was difficult for me to answer is
57:24
when they do a postmodern examination i have no idea what tissue
57:30
they disturbed or what bone matter they disturbed opposed to
57:36
what damage was caused by the projectile itself when it hit the
57:42
president's head see we didn't know that you got to keep in mind that they had been in there digging around and doing what they had
57:49
to do to i would assume try and find as many answers as they could in reference to
57:54
the uh what caused what so i'm not trying to avoid your question
58:00
i just don't want to go on the record it's saying that yes this is exactly and here this bone matter was missing here
58:06
or there i don't recall a lot of the bone matter being missing
58:12
sir let me ask you this do you recall whether anyone took photographs during the involvement i don't think they did
58:19
they may have we saw them busy i guess we weren't paying intention if they were
58:25
apart from that they buried you know they could i don't know that i can't answer that point apart from the
58:32
wound to the president's head and the
58:40
additional damage that may have been caused during the autopsy do you recall other wounds on the
58:46
president's body and and how you might have treated those no i remember we closed uh which i guess maybe could have
58:53
been a tracheotomy i don't know down in this area i was just simply stretching that out
58:58
would you say in this area i'm assuming that was a tracheotomy yeah you're pointing to the front of your front of
59:04
your throat just below the knot of your neck uh do you recall a wound on the on the
59:10
posterior the president's thorax his back somewhere on his neck
59:19
it could have been do you recall during the embalming whether you had occasion to turn the president's body over no we didn't but
59:27
his body had been turned over in our in our presence i remember that way his
59:32
body was turned all the way over and they were examining even the short time
59:38
that i was in there when you say that that was during the autopsy that is correct during the autopsy once we started our work we were
59:46
not interfered with in any way to the best of my recollection by any of the people who have performed the autopsy
59:53
during the portion of the autopsy that you saw where they had rolled the president's body do you recall that they were looking at
59:59
or they were looking all over but i mean there was no way i could tell you know
1:00:06
what they were looking at i'm far enough away from that i'm not that close now i'm not sitting right down there
1:00:13
looking at it in fact it might be good to clarify that do you recall how far away you were during the the final
1:00:18
stages i'm going to say probably uh to where this gentleman is so that's a
1:00:25
distance of maybe 15 12 or 15 feet something yeah yeah okay that's for my recollection
1:00:31
and setting up a little bit on those i remember they were bleachers more or less
1:00:38
do you recall again this is backing up to the final stages of the autopsy okay um
1:00:44
do you recall the pro sectors using any kind of a probe or anything like that to uh investigate wounds to the body
1:00:51
i don't no i may have used them before we were there i just don't recall them using
1:00:59
i wasn't paying any attention to what they were using they were very very busy people
1:01:05
doing what they had to do and sometimes you know there was certainly more than one person around the president's body
1:01:11
so oftentimes you couldn't really see what they were doing at least that could let's go back to the embalming how long
1:01:18
did the embalming process the bombing and preparation of the body how long did that process we started after midnight
1:01:24
and uh at about four right around four o'clock if we had
1:01:30
finished now keep in mind the embalming process itself probably
1:01:35
was finished about [Music] three o'clockish
1:01:41
the actual chemical embalming of his body then we had to start
1:01:48
with the cosmetics which took some time uh what sort of cosmetic preparation was done
1:01:56
nothing unusual um keep in mind it was not
1:02:02
the best of my recollection any damage of any kind on the president's face over and above you know there's a certain
1:02:08
amount of trauma that goes on when you i guess when they were examining his
1:02:13
body and what have you but they were we had no problems whatsoever there was no
1:02:18
damage to the front of the president's face to the best amount of record lacking so it was really the basic
1:02:25
type of cosmetics that we would do with any other case there was nothing unusual about that
1:02:31
nothing had to be covered up extensively now anytime you
1:02:39
have a postmodern examination and it's a very thorough examination and
1:02:45
handling of tissue sometimes you're getting a little
1:02:51
and of course due to the fact of the president being shot
1:02:58
in the head obviously there's a certain amount of trauma that goes with that can cause
1:03:03
some discolorations and of course when i guess at the hospital in falkland like any other
1:03:11
emergency room there's some very rapid fire procedures that probably took place
1:03:16
there and in terms of handling the president's head
1:03:22
the fact of that apparently is where the injuries were so sometimes we have to use a little
1:03:28
heavier cosmetic due to tissue bruises
1:03:33
discolorations when you say that normal cosmetics that's like powder or no it's a
1:03:39
cream-based cosmetic and then for the lips we have various
1:03:45
tents and what have you there was we had uh no need for
1:03:51
any derma surgery in terms of dealing with waxes or this type of thing there is no
1:03:58
problem here whatsoever that we have to deal with any unusual
1:04:04
uh cosmetic situation it was not unusual in dressing the
1:04:10
president yeah someone provided you with clothes yes for addressing the presidency
1:04:15
and how was he dressed he dressed in a blue pen striped suit if i remember correctly
1:04:25
white shirt i remember putting the roser beads in i
1:04:31
remember putting the rosary beads in his hand his hands were on his chest
1:04:37
his hands were about like that yeah it's only if you're educated
1:04:43
if i remember correctly they were on his chest and the rosary beads were in his hands
1:04:48
or in his hand yeah we just spread them around the fingers and so um when he put on the when he put
1:04:55
the shirt and necktie on the present that would obscure then the wound uh
1:05:00
that you closed previously in the throat yes it would have yes it definitely was
1:05:07
obscured i'm trying to think whether or not the moon would have been
1:05:14
below the color line and i don't remember what it was or not see where to suture that
1:05:23
if if that was a tracheotomy we would have sutured it real fine suturing and then we do have
1:05:30
to seal that and then we have to cosmetic over that area sometimes use a tiny bit of
1:05:37
dermal wax to uh and then cosmetic therapy on the wounds to the
1:05:43
president's head once you've completed the plaster of paris suturing of the scalp
1:05:49
do you recall whether you had to use any uh i don't know what the material is but hair or anything to kind of close that
1:05:56
up no we had no problem with that uh when the embalming was completed the
1:06:01
president was dressed you've done the cosmetics okay and you're ready now to put the
1:06:08
body into the casket can you tell us just how that was done and what happened then
1:06:16
when the body was prepared and uh obviously washed between
1:06:23
cosmetic
1:06:29
dressed and we just simply the casket was rolled in to that drum and then we just
1:06:36
transferred his body put it in the casket properly positioned it because we knew
1:06:42
it was gonna have to be transported from point a to point b
1:06:48
okay and uh being sure that we always put a
1:06:53
little a little foot pad you know where the body won't shift down because
1:06:58
sometimes you know when you ride and look just like air shipments we have to be
1:07:04
very careful when we position that body firmly in the casket it could cause some real problems yes
1:07:10
sir so we did not we did that and uh at that point
1:07:16
we were ready to remove the body and place it in the navy out here so at the point that you were the body's
1:07:24
in the casket and it's ready to go yeah was your understanding at that point that there was at least the possibility
1:07:31
still of an open casket viewing yes we did not know at that time what it was going to be
1:07:36
we had no idea we've never been told one way or the other we have not now maybe other people may
1:07:43
have but we have not been drunk and and in your judgment at the point at which the president was placed in the in
1:07:49
the casket and and your work was finished uh you thought that it would it was it was suitable for viewing yes it
1:07:55
definitely was suitable for you do you re was there any kind of uh i just want to clarify something is
1:08:02
there any kind of wrapping or external um cloth or towel or bandages or anything
1:08:08
on the president's head inside what's not uh when you said there was a velvet
1:08:14
lining inside the casket was that a white velvet or no so they found memo correctly
1:08:20
and that particular casket is sort of a
1:08:30
rose type color to it okay
1:08:36
um when the body was placed in the casket and it was ready to go inside the uh
1:08:42
back in the ambulance right you saw the casket closed i closed you closed it and yes did you
1:08:50
and your team place it inside the ambulance and you recall someone else did that secret service
1:08:55
come in got the body we found them out and i'm pretty sure i don't know well there could have been someone else
1:09:00
assisting them in lifting it but i remember they kellerman and somebody else i don't know
1:09:07
who the other agent if i remember correctly they wanted to handle the chief so they
1:09:12
did and i remember miss kennedy uh had been brought down at that stage of the game
1:09:18
and i remember helping her and robert kennedy and to the back of the ambulance where ms kennedy warned if he
1:09:25
was the president had you met robert kennedy before i had met robert kennedy only by
1:09:32
meeting him when he would be an honorary polar bear for certain kind of instructing the honoraries of this type
1:09:39
of thing i did not know robert kennedy and mrs kennedy had you met her before
1:09:44
same thing would be i've met miss kennedy saw miss kennedy or escorted mrs kennedy
1:09:51
to uh on funerals to uh wherever she was to be seated this type
1:09:57
of thing other than i did not know this candidate we were called to the white house
1:10:03
by miss kennedy the next day to talk about the eternal flame
1:10:10
joe gollum and myself went to the white house but we talked to our secretary we did not talk to her
1:10:16
question um i think we will want to
1:10:22
pick up uh the story here uh you know about what happens then but i wanted to offer you we've been here for a while
1:10:28
should we take a break for a few minutes so we take a break
1:10:34
all of us had coffee to drink yeah i think we would we'll go off the record now
1:10:45
doesn't be any different from any other fuel service file that we have you know
1:10:52
we're going to start the tape roll no we'd like to ask you about that thank you
1:10:58
not told if one of my employees was told that he never mentioned i was never told
1:11:04
and that will come up in fact i don't think he's ever come up in a lot of these
1:11:11
films that i've been involved in year after year and i'm just telling telling uh
1:11:18
doug a little earlier that um teleport i just came back from a
1:11:24
business trip and there's france 3 television
1:11:30
and so i called they want to talk about the hoover
1:11:36
funeral and stay in your home yeah they're doing a documentary
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on the hoover show france free television friends
1:11:47
well of course you're talking about france a country that thinks jerry lewis is the
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there's i think we'll go back on the record now
1:11:58
is the tape rolling yes okay um sir when we
1:12:04
before we turned the tape off we were talking about the closing of the casket the loading of the casket in the ambulance yeah
1:12:12
when that was finished then uh did you have anything else to do there it was uh
1:12:18
we had nothing else to do that except you know gear together and get out
1:12:24
and that's what we did now um you mentioned that the next day you were
1:12:29
contacted to come to the white house do you recall who called and or how you received that information mrs
1:12:36
kennedy's office called my memory says been corrected correctly and
1:12:45
wanted us to come down and talk about the eternal flame and eternal flame
1:12:53
and so we respond to the to that request and
1:12:58
joseph calling myself went down well we talked to her secretary and i don't recall her name right now
1:13:05
and mrs kennedy wanted her to ask us do we know of any
1:13:11
cemetery or any place if they have an eternal flame well the first one
1:13:17
come to mind was uh the american cemetery in france which does have the eternal flames that
1:13:24
we mentioned that and i believe there's one in gettysburg so but i didn't recall at the time
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that was about the extent of the conversation fine thank you bye um
1:13:36
at that conversation uh did they make it clear whether or not there was going to be a funeral were
1:13:42
they talking about arlington or had they made up their mind yet no she did not if my memory serves me correctly indicate
1:13:48
that the decision i understand go to arlington national cemetery as you young would probably know was made during that
1:13:57
first night later on that first night in my conversation with paul miller and
1:14:03
it was referring to you know trying to
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get the family and uh to make these decisions
1:14:16
to to what extent did galders have any involvement in the funeral itself as
1:14:22
opposed to the preparation of the body um when there is a let me answer it this
1:14:30
way when you have a state funeral let's say here in washington d.c
1:14:37
opposed to say president nixon's funeral in rose hill in california okay
1:14:46
the director or ceremonies and special events the military district of
1:14:52
washington has the responsibility you might say pretty well the architect
1:14:59
i guess may be a word to use in getting all these forces together your ceremonial troops all the logistics
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involved in terms of all these sequence of events say of the
1:15:12
kennedy funeral to get the troops where they're supposed to be
1:15:18
at the time they're supposed to be there they pretty well control
1:15:24
every facet of that funeral the funeral director
1:15:30
would provide the transportation for the most part he has
1:15:36
nothing to do with the ceremonies and there's no need why should he
1:15:44
uh and the kennedy funeral i think they would write close to seven thousand military troops used
1:15:50
seven thousand military including reserves and national guard and what they have is over six thousand
1:15:56
if i remember totally under the the uh management of
1:16:02
the director of ceremonies and special events and the state funeral itself lends
1:16:09
itself to being a primarily a military ceremony for the commander-in-chief
1:16:16
so the funeral director's role for example [Music]
1:16:22
if if you're providing a rehearse keep in mind we did not provide a hearse
1:16:28
the only time gold source was used when we took that task at the naval hospital the caisson was used
1:16:35
to transport his remains and the navy ambulance that was it
1:16:43
so it would seem then since they were not using gunners transportation
1:16:50
and uh the other aspects of arranging the funeral and planning it
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arranging the arranging of the funeral per se the conversation my understanding is
1:17:04
and i don't like to comment on things i'm not involved in but apparently
1:17:09
now the casket selection that could have been done by mrs kennedy
1:17:15
and i think we would all know certainly i don't think ms kennedy was certainly in the frame of mind to be
1:17:21
selecting casters when they found out the the bronze
1:17:26
casket was damaged okay and the decision was that then i
1:17:32
understand uh this is second-hand information maybe i shouldn't even comment
1:17:39
but the fact is that i don't think she wanted to see that bronze casket again either
1:17:44
keep in mind i guess she was the falkland hospital when the casket was brought out there from o'neill
1:17:50
funeral home and she had to look at it and i guess
1:17:56
it's a memory picture there for i guess wasn't very pleasant but the casket was damaged there's no question about that a
1:18:03
navy ambulance is not a hearse they're not fitted out inside
1:18:09
uh like a hearse they don't have rollers they got little seats on the side they
1:18:15
got a cot hook over here so there was a lot of room for damaging
1:18:22
that casket um so actually then
1:18:28
then we provided uh church trucks church truck
1:18:34
to define what that is is what the casket it is the uh
1:18:39
the conveyor for moving that gasket from point a to point b sort of like a gurney
1:18:44
in the hospital or something we have a special built uh church truck that we use at the
1:18:51
washington national could save in fact we leave one that will be used and this extra long way when the
1:18:58
military bears place the casket on that
1:19:04
device that they don't have to spend a lot of time to get the center you know wherever
1:19:11
it's setting crooked they can very easily send it very quickly wherever the
1:19:16
average church truck the funeral directors years you gotta get on your knees and pill the lip
1:19:22
puddle a little bit to get it centered because you've got to be very careful it's uh if it's not balanced it's going
1:19:28
to tip over uh
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we provided the church trucks we went to the the meetings a lot of the meetings involved in security
1:19:40
in terms of when you review the site plan where you're supposed to be here at uh
1:19:47
red four you you you'll be at red four and the time frame all of these things
1:19:54
uh if we are involved any part of it that we know what's going on and we know
1:19:59
what our responsibilities are and we know what they aren't
1:20:04
and we know when let's get the hell out of the way and when we should participate and in the case of the kennedy funeral
1:20:11
was it uh was there much participation there was no they stayed out of the way most of us stay out of the way
1:20:18
did you attend the funeral