Knudsen HSCA#3 Looking at Print Copies-Probes Pic Gone-&on Printing Them w/Fox,Who Did the Missing1?

MUST BE READ ALONG W/ TRANSCRIPT BELOW OR THERES NO POINT
Parts 1 &2:
https://rumble.com/v6xyf5u-knudsen-hsca-1-taking-the-photos-film-custody-w-ss-james-fox.html
https://rumble.com/v6xyfas-robert-knudsen-hsca-2-the-prints-the-probes-the-secrecy-order.html
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/knudsen.htm
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md135/html/md135_0001a.htm
TRANSCRIPT SEGMENT--
Mr. PURDY - We have gone over quite a few of your recollec- tions, and we are going to show you, in a second, the color autopsy prints that we have and ask you whether the prints that you are shown are consistent with your recollections of them when you saw them. The primary points that we are going to cover are the number and locations of wounds and the other details in the photographs that you described generally, such as the presence of metal probes in the photographs and the presence of rules in the photographs, and what have you. Are you confident now that you saw metal probes in the photographs?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - Are you confident that the metal probes were actually through the wounds when you saw them?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes, I am certain of that, because it showed the point of entry and exit with the probe.
Mr. PURDY - Were there ever photographs that you have seen, either before this incident or since that incident that you might be confusing with your recollection of these photographs?
Mr. KNUDSEN - To my knowledge, I have not seen anything regarding -- I have never seen any photographs of it other than

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the ones taken there.
Mr. PURDY - Have you seen photographs of any other autopsies?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Have you seen photographs of any other dead bodies that may have probes in them?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes, I have. I am certain on the Kennedy there were the probes showing the point of entry and exit.
Mr. PURDY - How many probes were there that you saw in a given picture? What is the most probes that you saw in a given picture at one time?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I know there were two.
Mr. PURDY - Two metal probes that were through wounds when you saw them?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - We will take a break. It is 11:20. (A brief recess was taken.)
Mr. PURDY - We will resuem. The time is now 11:28, and Mr. Knusen and I have just spoken with Bob Goff on the phone and, Mr. Knusen, if you just want to briefly state what Mr. Goff said to you about whether you could talk to us?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Well, Mr. Goff said that under the circumstan- ces that, it being a legitimate government subcommittee, that he felt that it would be appropriate to cooperate to the fullest. He did not have any objection to my talking. The main thing that they felt was continued silence towards

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any assassination buffs, reporters or this sort of thing. But, in so far as any Committee, they had no objection and thought that I should cooperate.
Mr. PURDY - Thank you. As I said previously, Mr. Goff is the General Counsel of the United States Secret Service.

Now, before the break we were talkinq about the number of probes, and you had said the most you saw in any one picture was two. I believe that is what you stated, is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I said the minimum was two.
Mr. PURDY - What was the most?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Over this period of time, I am not certain. It seems to me that there were three in one picture, but this I will not state for sure.
Mr. PURDY - Of the proves that you recall, where did they enter and where did they exit?
Mr. KNUDSEN - One was right near the neck and out the back.
Mr. PURDY - The front of the neck and out the back of the neck?
Mr. KNUDSEN - The point of entry-exit.
Mr. PURDY - The metal probe extended from the front of the neck to the back of the neck?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right. One was through the chest cavity.
Mr. PURDY - Did it go all the way through?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes. It seems to me that the entry point was

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a little bit lower in the back than -- well, the point in the back was a little bit lower than the point in the front. Put it that way. So the probe was going diagonally from top to bottom, front to back.
Mr. PURDY - Approximately, regarding both probes, how high -- you mentioned the one was from the front of the neck, the probe extended between points on the front of the neck and the back of the neck. How high on the back of the neck, and how high or low from the front of the neck would you say for that probe?
Mr. KNUDSEN - As I said, not studying them for technical purposes, it seemed to me that the point on the front was about this point, somewhere in this area here (Indicating).
Mr. PURDY - Could you articulate?
Mr. KNUDSEN - What bone is this?
Mr. PURDY - You are pointing to a point right around the top --
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right about where the neck-tie is. That would be somewhere in that vicinity.
Mr. PURDY - Approximately how much lower than that would you say the other probe, which went through the chest cavity?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I would put it six, seven inches.
Mr. PURDY - Was it opened or closed in the photograph?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It was a side view. I just glanced at it to make sure.
Mr. PURDY - From the side view, you saw both probes?

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Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - Where would you place the points of the probes in the back? You say one was in the neck, one was in the back. Approximately how high up, or how low?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I would put in the back -- it would seem to me it is probably around ten inches. There, again, I do not recall the length of time. I cannot say.
Mr. PURDY - You were kind of pointing to the middle of your back, about midway down, you would say?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Midway between the neck and the waist.
Mr. PURDY - Where was the other probe?
Mr. KNUDSEN - This one --
Mr. PURDY - You just indicated where the probe came out, on the lower --
Mr. KNUDSEN - Somewhere around the middle of the back. It seemed to me it was right around midchest.
Mr. PURDY - The probe that you said you could see coming out of the neck, the front of the neck, where was it out of the back of the neck? How high up would you say that one was.
Mr. KNUDSEN - About the base of the neck. Was the body lying flat, or sitting up or lying on its front when you saw the probes through it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It would have to be erected to put the probes through, because on the back there was no way.
Mr. PURDY - Could you make out the faces of the people who

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were holding him or the faces of the people in the background?
Mr. KNUDSEN - To my knowledge, there were no faces.
Mr. PURDY - Could you see their hands?
Mr. KNUDSEN - There again, I did not study them.
Mr. PURDY - Was there, in any of the photographs, a photo- graph showing a metal probe through the head?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, not to my knowledge. To my knowledge, the only photograph of the head was to show the wound in the right rear of the head there, a little right of center.
Mr. PURDY - I am going to show you the color autopsy prints. They are numbered beginning with 26F. If you want to make a comment on a particular print, just let me know and I will doublecheck the number of it so I will be able to refer to it in the record. Let the record show I am handing the witness JFK Autopsy Photo No. 6, part 1, opened to the color prints. These are photographs of the autopsy prints. These are not the actual prints.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was going to say, these are not the original prints. I can see that right off. The color is off. Did you want me to go through them?
Mr. PURDY - You can leaf through them and make comments where you feel that it is necessary. If you see photographs that you recognize, you might say that you recognize it.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I recall roughly -- there again, I did not study

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them in detail, I just fanned through the negatives.
Mr. PURDY - The witness has looked through photographs 26 tl 29 so far.
Mr. KNUDSEN - These are roughly what I recall seeing, and here is the ruler that I recall on one.
Mr. PURDY - The witness is referring to photograph 38F.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I recall seeing one --
Mr. PURDY - The photograph of the back of the President.
Mr. KNUDSEN - There again, I will not say it was this one. I see that there are others. I recall, in the back of my mind, there was a ruler in some of the photographs.
Mr. PURDY - Let the record show that some of these are multiple prints of the same one. Let me ask you --
Mr. KNUDSEN - I did not see these.
Mr. PURDY - The witness is referring to the color photographs of the brain. He said he had not seen those. Let me ask you about photograph number 44F. Was this the photograph you made reference to earlier when you talked about the photograph of the head opened up or the skull opened up?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It seems to me that there was one photograph that showed -- I can best describe it to you. This part of the hair (Indicating). There seems that there is a strand of skin holding this this way.
Mr. PURDY - This witness is pointing to the back portion of

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the head. I am turning to photograph 42 and 43F.
Mr. KNUDSEN - This is not what I mean.
Mr. PURDY - A photograph of the back of the President's head. Let me just ask you if that looks like one that you saw, or that matches your recollection. This is the back of the President's head here.
Mr. KNUDSEN - There again, I did not study it in detail. It seems to me that there was a little bit more of the piece of the skull hanging in one of the photographs. Here, this is it.
Mr. PURDY - Now we are referring to Photograph No. 37F, showing the top of the President's head. So it is your testimony here today that these photographs are not inconsistent with the ones that you saw?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, not at all.
Mr. PURDY - Is there anything that you saw that is not represented by these photographs?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I feel certain that there was the one with the two probes.
Mr. PURDY - One photograph with two probes through the body?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - I am referring again to Photograph No. 37 in the area that is on the right side of the photograph from your position, which is to the front of the President's body. There are some metal things vaguely in view, one which points towards the

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President.
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is not it. That is not what I had in mind.
Mr. PURDY - Could you, once again, go through the photographs looking carefully to see if there is anything in there that you might have taken to be a metal probe which was not on this examination? (Pause) Let the record show that the witness is beginning again at 26F. (Pause)
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not see a photograph here that covers the chest area.
Mr. PURDY - It was your sense that it was from the side, though?
Mr. KNUDSEN - A side view.
Mr. PURDY - Referring to Photograph No. 40F, showing the front of the President, including the front neck region, do you see a point on the President which would correspond to one or more of the locations of the probe that you recall?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right here (Indicating.)
Mr. PURDY - Could you articulate it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right here -- the neck -- where the necktie would be tied.
Mr. PURDY - Let the record show that the witness is pointing

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to the tracheotomy incision at the front of the President's neck. Is it your recollection, also, that there was a probe lower than that area? Is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - Looking at this photograph, approximately how much lower? Was it at a point that would not be visible in this photograph?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I am beginning to wonder now. I do not see anything here. But it is in the back of my mind there was a probe through the body.
Mr. PURDY - Is it your present recollection that the body was not opened up in the chest area, or could you not tell whether it was opened up, or was it definitely not open in the picture that you recall but do not see here?
Mr. KNUDSEN - There again, I was looking quickly for quality. I did not study it. But I do not recall seeing any photograph of the chest being opened.
Mr. PURDY - Do you think it is something you would remember, if the President's chest was cut and opened up?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - Does this approximately respond to the number of color prints you recall? Mr. Knusen. That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - It is just your recollection that there was

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one more, or at least one more, than is present in these?
Mr.Knudsen. It seems to me that the one I saw with the probes was strictly a negative. I do not remember seeing a print of it. The first day, when we processed the film, we were just checking the negatives. I believe it was a black and white. I do not know. I believe it was the negative of the probe.
Mr. PURDY - You think it was black and white, or you think it might have been, or you are just not sure?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It was a negative. I do not recall ever having seen a print, but it seems to me that there was a negative, in checking the negatives.
Mr. PURDY - Let me show you from the same photo book at the beginning, photographs of the black and white prints. Do you see if perhaps one of these might correspond to your recollection of the black and white negative that you just referred to, beginning at Photograph No. 1F? Let the record show that the witness is looking through the photographs sequentially. (Pause)
Mr. KNUDSEN - Is this in the copy?
Mr. PURDY - Let the record show that the witness is refer- ring to 13F. It looks like a band of light across the lower portion of the photograph.
Mr. KNUDSEN - In looking at the negative, you have a band here. It has been so doggoned long. If that is in the original --

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Mr. PURDY - I do not think it is in the original, because it looks like it is on something from the copies.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I see it over here now. I do not see it.
Mr. PURDY - You are saying you do not see it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not see it here, but in the back of my mind, it still seemed that there was one photograph, the body erect with two probes through it.
Mr. PURDY - Let me ask you --
Mr. KNUDSEN - One negative.
Mr. PURDY - It is your recollection that it was just one film pack of black and white film?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - You say there are twelve exposures?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Twelve exposures.
Mr. PURDY - There definitely was not another pack?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I will not swear to that. I do not honestly remember.
Mr. PURDY - You personally developed the black and white film?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - No one else was in the room when you did it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is right.
Mr. PURDY - It is James Fox's recollection that he did the black and white developing at the Secret Service lab. That is inconsistent with your recollection.

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Mr. KNUDSEN - He may have printed black and whites at his lab. The black and whites were developed at the photographic center at the same time that the color was.
Mr. PURDY - You personally have a specific recollection of having developed the black and white negatives?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right. Jim stood outside the darkroom door.
Mr. PURDY - It is also Mr. Fox's recollection that some of the black and white sides of the film holders either had no film in them or they were not exposed.
Mr. KNUDSEN - The black and white was film pack. The film holders were color. To the best of my knowledge, there were no black and whites in the holders. I know there was a pack.
Mr. PURDY - It is also your recollection that all of the exposures came up well, of the black and whites?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - You said maybe one of the colors either was underexposed or overexposed?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It could not have been overexposed. There is no exposure. I do not recall for sure on this, but --
Mr. PURDY - If there was one like that --
Mr. KNUDSEN - There is something shady about the third piece of film we took with us.
Mr. PURDY - If there was one, it was color and not black and white?

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Mr. KNUDSEN - Correct.
Mr. PURDY - Were you ever asked for a statement by any government body about the work that you did pertaining to the negatives or autopsy prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Could you articulate that again?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Do you recall that the orders to have the prints made up came to you from Fox?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, I do not. At this point, I do not recall who gave the specific order.
Mr. PURDY - It is your sense that it was in a meeting with Tax Shepherd, Admiral Berkley, and possibly Jim Fox's being present. Is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It is my recollection that the prints of Dr. Berkley, the Secret Service and I do not recall who the agent was, possibly Fox and possibly Tax Shepherd.
Mr. PURDY - Mr. Fox has indicated that Dr. Berkley told him to have the prints made up, and then he went to Mr. Balk of the Secret Service for his okay. Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It could have been Berkley. I know Berkley was definitely there when the prints -- it seems to me that Berkley is the one who stated that the prints were to be made and, like I say, I do not recall who was there other than I know

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that Berkley was. It seems to me that Fox was, and it could have been other agents, and it could have been Taz Shepherd.
Mr. PURDY - You think Taz Shepherd was aware of what was going on?
Mr. KNUDSEN - As an agent present in the field, he was aware of it.
Mr. PURDY - Do you have any personal knowledge about when and where the black and white prints were made?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Do you know that they were not made at the Naval Photographic Center?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not know that for a fact. I assumed that the black and white prints were made by Jim Fox. He had black and white capabilities within the Secret Service. The reason we got involved was the color capability which he did not have.
Mr. PURDY - Was there anything else that you can add for us about the details of these incidents, or anything that you want to put in perspective or elaborate on at this time?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. Like I say, it has been fifteen years and a lot of this is foggy. I do know that the best sequence of events that I can recall was the morning following the autopsy, Berkley handed me a paper bag with the black and white and color film and there was an agent-- I do not recall who it was -- and Jim Fox was there, and he said, take this over to the Photographic Center, process it, bring the negatives back, don't let anybody

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see it. I said, somebody is going to have to in the color processing of it. Don't let anybody see it who doesn't have to, and don't discuss it with anybody.
Mr. PURDY - Was there anyone else that you know of that may have seen the negative that you are talking about that showed the probes, anyone else that we might suggest that we might talk to about that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. It is just in the back of my mind I am certain that there is the one shot of the body erect, two probes through it, and I processed the black and white. I hung it up. I just quickly went down it to make sure I had everything there. I then closed tne door. Jim and I stayed outside, had a cup of coffee or something while the film was drying. After it was dry, I put each negative in a four by five preserver, took it, took the color, which had also dried the same.
Mr. PURDY - Did Jim Fox look at those black and white negatives, to your knowledge?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Not in my presence.
Mr. PURDY - You were present when you and he turned them over?
Mr. KNUDSEN - We went back to -- it seems to me it was W-16, I am not certain. We did go into W-16, but wherever it was we went with the negative. We turned them all back.

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Mr. PURDY - The only reason you would have a feeling that he had reviewed them was the fact that you assumed that he made black and white prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I assume that Jim is the one that made the prints.
Mr. PURDY - Did Sandy Spencer or anyone else at Naval Photographic Center have an occasion to look at the black and white negatives, to your knowledge?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. Sandy was basically color. As I say, I went into the dark room, processed it, went out the door, stayed outside the door. When it was dry, I went back and checked them. They were dry, and we departed.
Mr. PURDY - Have you had any discussion with any of the other people that you tlaked about today about what you saw in those photographs?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, never. I never discussed anything on these photographs until today in detail.
Mr. PURDY - Have you had any previous experience seeing metal probes such as this so that you would know what it would look like on a negative?
Mr. KNUDSEN - The only reason I say I thought it was a metal probe, in my recollection, it was a rod. Twenty-four inches long, probably; three-eighths of an inch diameter. It appeared to be aluminimum, stainless steel. There again, it was a negative this size, hanging like this

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to dry.
Mr. PURDY - You have had a lot of experience looking at negatives over the years?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Over the years.
Mr. PURDY - Could it have been some form of light shadow or a defect in the negative that you may have thought was a metal probe, or do you think there was actually an object, that there was a picture taken?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I thought that there had to be something in the negative that I do not believe could have been a defect, no.
Mr. PURDY - It did not look like an artifact of any kind?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It did not appear that way to me. Like I say, I did not take it down and study it over a view, or anything like that. I just glanced at it. The wall was approximately this color and the negatives were hanging like this (Indicating). I just flipped them around like this (Indicating).
Mr. PURDY - Let the record show that the witness held up some papers from the top, as though it was a negative hanging from a line, and just turned them and glanced at the papers. How certain are you that seven prints, seven sets of prints were made of the color negatives?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is the number that sticks in the back of my mind. Why the number seven sticks there, I do not know.
Mr. PURDY - You have a specific recollection that there was a number, not just one or two, but there were a number of sets of

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prints made. Is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Oh, yes. More than one or two.
Mr. PURDY - Does it refresh your recollection to know that no one else whom we have talked to recalls that there were more than one or two sets of prints made? I do not mean to imply that I am questioning your word. I just want point out to you that there is a very significant discrepancy in people's recollections, and while yours seems very specific, I just wanted you to know that there were others who recall that it was otherwise.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Again, I repeat, it has been approximately 15 years. To the best of my recollection, there were more than one or two. Like I say, why the number -- I will not swear to the number seven, but that number sticks in the back of my mind for some reason, and apparently there were more than seven negatives printed, therefore --
Mr. PURDY - Let me ask you this. If you were to be told that someone was absolutely certain, and had proof, that there were only one or two or three sets of prints maae, what would your reaction to that be? Would your reaction be, well, I guess I just --
Mr. KNUDSEN - If they are absolutely certain, and have good reason to be certain of it, I would not argue with them.
Mr. PURDY - Would you be surprised to find that that was the

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case?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Like I say, this number seven -- I do not now, but it sticks in the back of my mind. If you said, well, you can show me a document with the printers that there was to be two each or three each, I would say well, I still do not know where the seven came from. But I will not argue with you.
Mr. PURDY - You would be surprised if you found that to be the case, that there were only one or two or three sets made, and not seven, is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I would not say I would be surprised.
Mr. PURDY - It is not your present recollection?
Mr. KNUDSEN - My present recollection is there were more than one or two sets made.
Mr. PURDY - At this time, as we do with each witness, we will give you an opportunity to elaborate, or make any other comments that you would like to make, and I think we gave you that opportunity, but I asked a few more questions. If you would like to add anything, please do so at this time.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Like I say, it has been a long time. To the best of my recollection, it has been, as I said -- on the number of prints, if you have reason to show that there were two or three, I would not argue with it. If, for some reason, this number seven sticks up in the back of my mind, I could well be wrong. But that number sticks in the back of my mind.

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As to that, I am certain the black and white negatives was one with the body sitting up with the probes through it. I do not know. I honestly do not what to say now if that one is missing. It is in the back of my mind, in fact, even to the point that it was the right profile. The body was sitting up, and looking at the right side profile.
Mr. PURDY - I should add that -- Mr. Knutsen. I will tell you one thing that would clarify it, if the negatives were available. The film pack is numbered right on the bottom at the factory, and you can go one through twelve.
Mr. PURDY - Also, there has not been previous evidence that there were either metal probes that were extended totally through the body, or that such probes were photographed through the body. So obviously, it would be significant if your recollection were correct, and it would be of evidentiary significance to us. I, in no way, mean to question your view, your recollection. I just want you to have it in historical perspective as to what some other say, and you may be absolutely, completely correct.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not know why that one sticks in my mind. A right profile of the body. It would seem to me that if it were, as I am sure that it was, that there would have been something in the autopsy report as to the probes, and I cannot conceive in my mind why I would feel that this negative did have it. Like I said a couple of times, I did not study these things

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over a viewing glass like this (Indicating). As you say, it was suspended from a clothespin on a wire, a hook on a wire, and I was just flipping them this way. I do not see any picture there that would confuse with the picture, the waist-up picture.
Mr. PURDY - If you should recall anything else, whether it is new things or elaboration or your opinions on anything change or someone should, someone's name should come to mind who might also be able to provide information, I hope you will feel free to contact us here.
Mr. KNUDSEN - You have talked to Jim Fox?
Mr. PURDY - Yes.
Mr. KNUDSEN - And he did not recall any black and white negative of that nature?
Mr. PURDY - I am not permitted to give out the substance of the investigation, but I think you can glean certain things from the nature of my questions.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Jim is the one who apparently printed the black and white. I know the black and white did not go into the Photo Center for printing, so I would assume that Jim did it. Why this sticks in my mind, that there was one with these two probes through the body that nobody else recalls, it puts a question in my mind, and yet but I could not imagine where I could get the idea from, if I had not seen it. And yet it is starting to bother me now that there is nothing in the autopsy

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about it. Certainly that would be in the autopsy, if it were true. At this point, I wish I had studied the negatives rather than glance at them. At this point, I am confused why it sticks in my mind so strongly that there was this photograph, yet nobody else recalls it, and it is apparently not in any report. If it is not in any report -- I cannot conceive why it would not be in the report. If it were there -- it is really bothering me as to why it does stick in my mind so much.
Mr. PURDY - As I said, if you, you know, desire to talk about it, or after you have thought about it some more or whatever, please feel free to give us a call and we will be glad to talk about it. We appreciate very much your taking the time and coming in, particularly since it took a lot longer than we thought it would.
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is okay. I am trying to rack my mind on why this should stick in my mind so strongly that there was this photograph, and yet no other signs of it. It bothers me, but I cannot think of any reason that it would stick in my mind if I hadn't seen it.
Mr. PURDY - This concludes the deposition. It is now 12:05. (Whereupon, at 12:05 p.m., the taking of the instant deposition ceased.)

END OF ROBERT KNUDSEN DEPOSITION