The Mystery of Captain Michael D Groves #1 of 2- Background, Groves' Story- Crudele w_David Blanco

Transcript to read along if anyone has trouble with the audio-
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welcome to JFK in the enduring secret I'm your host Jeff
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[Music]
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Cel hello everyone and welcome to JFK the enduring secret on YouTube today is
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the debut of our very first minseries on the tube and it truly is a wander so
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much so that we decided that the wander deserves its own name so we're calling
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it Mysteries of the enduring secret not everything about the JFK assassination
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is a big mystery but then again on the other end of the spectrum there are more
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than a handful of big Mysteries inside this case a case that overall remains an
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enduring Secret about 2 years ago I returned a phone call one day from a man whose name was
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unfamiliar to me his name was Rick Russo little did I know that Rick had been a
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catalyst in getting episode number six produced for the men who killed Kennedy
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he had found my podcast and now I had found him to make a long story short
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Rick and I quickly became friends and over time our focus on the JFK assassination led to the idea that we
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should engage in a series of episodes together for JFK the endearing secret
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Rick has a superb understanding of some of the most Arcane aspects of the case
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you've heard it before on this show that the eye is blind to what the Mind cannot
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see I've been studying this case for almost 35 years and it just about every
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phone call with Rick I've learned something more about the assassination
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it took a little coaxing from me to get him on the tube and Mysteries of the enduring secret comes to us from 12
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stories identified by Rick himself and you'll hear the first one today on JFK
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the enduring secret on YouTube most people don't realize that
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the White House is a military post the White House guard is there to protect
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the president and the president of course is the commanderin-chief of the Armed Forces upon the death of the
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president the captain of the White House guard assumes temporary command of the White House and he or she does so until
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such time as the captain is relieved of command by the newly sworn in
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president with LBJ in Texas at the time of the assassination the situation
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invoked the need for the guard to assume control over some functions at the White House until lbj's return to Washington
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which occurred occurred later that evening and certainly under the circumstances there was a heightened amount of security being applied all the
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way around the White House guard is part of the third United States infantry
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better known as the old guard on November 22nd Michael Groves
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was captain of the White House guard and today's episode deals with his mysterious story in his mysterious
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death the historical origins of the White House guard are interesting following the Revolutionary
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War the Continental Army was disbanded and only a small artillery Detachment
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located at West Point was retained this group became the third infantry regiment which is more
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affectionately known as I said as the old guard the third infantry regiment
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since 1948 has made their home at Fort Meyer Virginia you can look across the
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pomac from there and see the nation's capital the Old Guard is responsible for
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many functions and one of them is maintaining the Perpetual guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier however it may be more widely
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recognized for performing burials in Arlington Cemetery with all of the ceremonial accoutrements and for
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providing the quesan platoon and Paul bearers for State funerals the Old Guard is the oldest
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active Infantry Regiment in the United States Army so it's fitting that this unit should bear the responsibility for
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the supervision Direction and performance of funerals perhaps there is no more
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poignant symbol at a state funeral than a riderless horse a horse which is
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considered a symbolic representation that the deceased was mounted in this life and will continue to be mounted in
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the Hereafter perhaps the most famous riderless horse was Blackjack named
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after General John J blackjack ja persing the general made most famous by World War
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I although the death of President Kennedy brought the Old Guard and its military Traditions into the national
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Spotlight the activities surrounding the funeral also brought tragedy to the
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members of the third infantry regiment Captain Michael D grov the
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officer responsible for the military Arrangements at the funeral of the president died of a heart attack just 10
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days later on December 3rd 1963 at home while dining with his
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family he was 27 years old and he was a captain responsible for the training and
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the supervision of the body bearers those who did the death watch the rifle
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firing party and the quesan escort for the services at the White House the
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capital in Arlington Cemetery according to a speech after his
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death made on the floor of the house of repes Representatives by Congressman James G Fulton of Pennsylvania Fulton
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would say captain Groves worked day and night to handle the arrangements and he
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over taxed himself that was the official story of Michael Groves but how could a healthy
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27-year-old simply collapse onto his dinner plate and pass away in the
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presence of his family with the explanation being that he simply over taxed
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himself is that what really happened now in this episode we'll Dive
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Right into this mystery of the enduring
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secret I actually David it's a pleasure to meet you in person I know we had a CH
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we had a very nice conversation last night when I was at the diner and uh or the night before whatever it was I I
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appreciate uh you being so uh prompt actually and getting on with it so
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quickly we're we're we're having a lot of fun with this I just you know before we get started um well it's nice to have
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an alternate platform this has you know been a story that that needed to be told for decades you know you know whether
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what the validity of it you know I don't know in in terms of uh uh you know I've
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read the number of deaths that have been associated with the Kennedy assassination you know people have just
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died of natural causes you know other people have been shot in the back of the head uh so the so the number of uh of
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deaths associated with this is a pretty Monumental um certainly
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is it it um this is a a story actually
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just to give you a little bit of background on the miniseries that we're producing here for JFK the enduring
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secret uh YouTube channel uh it Rick and I got together probably about two years
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ago he Rick called I think I told you the story Rick called me left a message
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identified how he had become uh involved in the JFK
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assassination uh research community so to speak and uh his involvement with the
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men who killed Kennedy and I called him back we had a long conversation actually
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some spirited debate I think too on a Sunday afternoon uh and that began a an
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increasingly uh more significant collaboration on a lot of different things and in the meantime I've been
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able to produce 209 episodes on the show and you know we we really we want to do
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this in a really Mindful and respectful way and and uh in a way that does uh
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justice to all of the elements of this case and I might as I say on the podcast
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I use a lot of colloquialism and I say things like you know you fact is Stranger Than Fiction and you just
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really can't write this stuff and right so it led us to a moment where we decided we were going to do a dozen or
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so stories and as sort of an offshoot of JFK the enduring secret called Mysteries
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of the enduring secret things that may have some significance uh to the case
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but have never been resolved or solved so this is one of them yeah yeah exactly
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well and you know the more people that see this the the more feedback you get and presumably they have more of an
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opportunity than I do in doing some of the research you know I was uh you know
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we I went back to Dallas last year um and uh we attempted to get into the uh
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the Dallas Museum you know on the fifth floor well as as it turned out because
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of covid they were closed on the Monday so we knew we couldn't get there on a Monday so I showed up on a Tuesday well
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they were closed on the Tuesday as well we didn't get the chance to didn't
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get a chance to go in and see the uh the museum although I think they pretty much stick to the party line oh yeah yeah the
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certainly the museum does for sure that's there's no doubt about that um well um how we just plan on do it's
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really casual how we plan on doing this today is uh really actually to just kind
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of hand it off to you and let you tell the story and obviously be good listeners and and interject from time to
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time with a question and and Rick will probably direct he he knows the story better than I do for sure and uh it's
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fascinating of course and uh and we'll just do it that way and uh see how see how it leads no no Rhyme or Reason you
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the other day you were just fabulous on the phone and I think uh uh you know just having that kind of that kind of
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narrative would be great okay well I can I can start simply
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by you know um I I was 18 years old just
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starting College uh you know when Kennedy was assassinated obviously uh
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you know everybody began to just get glued to the TV set you know because it was almost on you know 247 you know you
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um and uh it always struck me as being a little odd that people just immediately
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jumped to the conclusion that it was a a lone shooter you know know that just
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immediately came out they kind of knew who the shooter was it was Lee Harvey Oswald and um uh but then over the years
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you know after the warrant report came out and uh began looking at some of the
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facts that they were that was missing from the report um you know I began to
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you know feel that the true story was being covered up um uh that said you
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know so many years later I was uh I at that point I was living in in California
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I was transferred to Michigan um uh I rented um uh in a a
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place a house actually it was a like a duplex um and I
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um on on uid on uid Avenue in Birmingham and uh at one point in time I was on the
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second floor and I was looking I was looking out the the back window and and I saw a gentleman uh lying on the ground
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next door it must have been I would maybe say June or July um so the weather
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was very nice and anyway I I was a little alarmed that this that this man was just lying sort of face down in the
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backyard on some nice plush grass um and I went next door and I knocked on the
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door and the woman came out and um I said I don't know if you're aware of
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this but there's a gentleman lying face down on on in your backyard and she said oh that's my husband she said I think he
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had a little too much to drink last night and he just lay lied down in the in the backyard she said he was too
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heavy for me to move so I just left him there so I said oh okay so he's okay she
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said I'm sure he is um and that's how I met the nextd door neighbors you know um
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story and uh um and what happened what happened after that is um you know we
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ran into each other on occasion basically just being next door and at one point they invited myself and my
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wife over uh for dinner and so we you know happily uh agreed to join them we
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went there we were having a very nice dinner and and chatting and at some point I looked up on the mantle and
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there was a a photograph of a of a of a young man in in uniform and I not
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knowing any anything about them for the most part I I looked and I said who's the who's the uh uh who's the man on the
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mantle that um uh in in uniform and they said they said that's that was our
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son and um and I said he's uh they said he's dead now and I said I'm sorry to
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hear that and how did that happen and they said well you know he was a uh the
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captain of the Guard um in in the White House and uh they the story that tell me
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is that he was hand selected by President Kennedy that the president actually hand selects the captain of the
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Guard during his term of office and uh so um um Captain Michael
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Groves was the one that was selected he was I think 27 years of age um he was uh
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married uh I think he got married in Birmingham Michigan uh he was in the ROC
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I think in an arbor um um he uh his I think his family had
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some influence with Birmingham because Birmingham they call it Birmingham high now but it used to be called Groves High
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so it was named after one of the Groves but I don't think it was I don't think it was Don Groves the the gentleman that
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lived next door but I think his family you know might have been a mover and Shaker in Birmingham at one point in
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time and I believe believe that you if you're going to be selected by the president from from uh for the Old Guard
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and become the the the captain of the Old Guard I think you'd probably have to have a pretty
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impeccable um uh resume you know and that probably might include you know the
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fact that his U parents or his grandparents you know were sort of
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movers and shakers in the town of Birmingham Michigan in order to get a to get the school name after them uh not
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not soon after not soon after I left I think they changed the name from Groves
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High to Birmingham high school so as I said it's now called Birmingham High
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anyway they the story that they tell me is uh that their son being the captain
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of the Guard they said that the White House is not um is not a government
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building per se it's actually a military fort uh and um uh it is the residence of
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the commanderin-chief of the Armed Forces and what what according to them
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when Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas the captain of the Guard
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assumes authority over the fort over the White House and he needs to be relieved by the
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incoming commander and chief Chief well Johnson was being sworn in on a plane
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you know after Kennedy was assassinated and so he was about five hours away uh
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not necessarily by playing but by the time Kennedy was pronounced dead to the time that Lyndon the LBJ entered the
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White House and relieved Captain Groves of command um Groves was listening to
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everything that was coming into and out of the way White House so for about five hours he was privy to people calling in
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basically saying we had nothing to do with this I mean it could have been it could have been the Russians could have
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called in and say we have nothing to do with this it could have been the Cubans I have no idea who who called I'm sure
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many many people many government officials called and so on so he in
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essence was was privy to this um they believe that um that that caused them to
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want to off him and they believed that he allegedly on the on the November
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25th had a heart attack at 27 was in fine physical condition as most of the
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members of the of the honor guard are and
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um the family believes he was poisoned um they had uh they showed me
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an Al a a picture album of the funeral um with the case on carrying their son's
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coffin with the lone horse pulling the cas on with the boots backwards in the
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stups uh you know there's some issue as what kind of blanket might have been used they the the different color of the
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blanket might have been um indicative of the uh uh position that that person held
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in government or in the military um but nonetheless it was a
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state funeral um straight straight up Pennsylvania Avenue towards um Arlington
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National Cemetery uh and that was um according to
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the White House and according to um um our Arlington National Cemetery uh he
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died on the third of December and was buried on the 6th of
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December um so I had uh at one point many many
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years later uh was uh standing in a uh a post office in Grover Beach probably I
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would say in 2014 2015 um and I was waiting to mail some packages and there was another gentleman
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there by the name of David Smallwood and he sort of came in and it happened to be the it happened to be November 22nd as
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it turned out and he made some comment you know about this is the anniversary of the Kennedy assassination and blah
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blah blah and can anybody believe that it was a lone gunman you know they still believe that and anyway so I mentioned
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to him I said well I said if you're interested I can tell you an interesting story that most people have never heard
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and he said you know I'd be interested in hearing that and uh so he waited for me outside as I finished up with uh
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taking care of the packages that I was sending and then I began to tell him this this story that I've been relating
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to you about Michael Groves and my uh my living next to his mother and father uh
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da and Gladis uh as it turned out he uh publishes he published a local a local
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paper um and uh he said you know this is a kind of an inter this might be an interesting story why don't we look into
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this so for the next few months we began tracking down uh you know anybody who
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was still alive you know we we uh tracked down a couple of other uh soldiers at that time but the one person
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that we really kind of dug into was uh Bobby Hayden and he was in Alabama and I
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think he was teaching at one of the colleges there he was teaching history at one of the colleges there and uh I
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had had an opportunity at one point in tracking him down because there was an article about him in one of the Alabama
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Gaz or one of the papers and that's how I got his name and uh Smallwood uh was
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able to track him down and Smallwood had a conversation with him and then we set up um a um a telephone uh telephone
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conference uh with Bobby Hayden and Bobby Hayden basically laid it all out
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for us as to his involvement uh with becoming in the honor guard and it was
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primarily I think because Harry because Truman I think wanted to um uh integrate the military uh so for
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some 14 years or so nothing was done um and uh I think when Kennedy got in uh
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became president I think the story goes that Jacqueline Kennedy said you know there are no there are no Black Faces in
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the honor guard he she told uh John Kennedy I think you need to do something about that so the word was put out that
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they were looking for members in the military who who were at least 6 feet
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tall and had a college degree and uh at that time um uh Bobby Hayden uh applied
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for the job uh he was interviewed um I don't know whether my understanding is
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that that the interviewer didn't like him very much because they asked him whether or not he'd be willing to salute
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the uh president of the United States and he said no I don't think so he didn't think really that there was a lot
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of fairness in government and that there was too much racism um but they they
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selected him to be a member of the honor guard and at that point his duty was really opening up a door when you know
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when um when a guest arrived at the White House and opening the door and closing the door just standing there and
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saluting when necessary um but he um uh
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uh obviously uh gravitated to uh to doing more and more uh for the guard and
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he became friends with Michael Groves who was now his captain um they
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um from what I understand faton IED with with one another he would invite them over to his house and they would B have
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barbecues he would invite a lot of the uh a lot of the uh African-American soldiers there to his house um I mean it
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was actually grounds to be kicked out of the military to to do that with uh with
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um uh with Junior soldiers and uh but I think they just
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left Michael Groves alone and he became friends with what was known there were seven members of of the honor guard that
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were African-American and they called themselves The Magnificent Seven so he so Bobby Hayden was one of the
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Magnificent Seven um he was I think on leave a 72-hour
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leave uh Bobby was when he heard that president
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Kennedy was assassinated he immediately went back to the barracks and uh uh did
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whatever duties he had to do uh and um
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Michael Groves Captain Groves uh said after the funeral that he wanted he said
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I'm gon to make you famous he said you're going to be the first person to stand guard at the Eternal Flame and and
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at that point uh Hayden had probably slept you know all of the half a dozen
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hours in three days so he was pretty exhausted but he put on some some a clean uniform and he stood guard um for
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I'm not quite sure how long that was probably four hours he wanted the uh um
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Captain Groves wanted him to to get there before the sun went down which he did and um after his um standing guard
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he went back to the barracks and um the people in the other soldiers in
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the Barrack said told him why don't you take a shower and why don't you get a bite to eat uh he says we have something
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to tell you uh so he did and they sat him down they knew how close he was how
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they all were pretty close to to Captain Groves and um they told him that Captain
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Groves had died so this was he hears about this on
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November 25th this is the same date that Kennedy was buried buried uh and
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according to him uh the date of his funeral was 3 days later it was November
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28th um interestingly enough the the White House and Arlington National
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Cemetery have Captain Grove's death as December 3rd and his burial December
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6th uh Bobby Hayden is adamant about the date he say it's it's not something that
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I could forget he said that here's the day that we bury the president of the
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United States and he says and and the captain of the Guard dies he said it's
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just not a date that you confuse with something that happened you know a week
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later um so we uh so uh so Dave
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Smallwood wrote a wrote a piece up in uh in uh can't remember the name The
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Gazette uh and uh he he ultimately sent it to the Dallas Museum on the fifth
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floor the Dallas Museum and they accepted it and put it into their archives and I think from there um is uh
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how um Rick rouso read the article and reached out to uh Dave Smallwood and
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then ultimately reached out to me not too long ago and um that basically the
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story um you know other than the the other fact was that when I lived in
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Birmingham um you know couple of interesting anecdotal things with uh
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with Don Groves he worked for the Ford Motor Company heavy truck division up in
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Pontiac Michigan and um he always had this God
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awful car parked in front of his house uh he would uh as a I guess he was an
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executive there uh and he would order um I believe I'm
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not a car person because when I first showed up in Michigan I was driving a Volvo so that tells you how much uh
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people had never seen a Volvo in Michigan back in 1971 um uh but he ordered this God aful
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car you know it had like a leopard top with a zebra interior you know with a
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continental kit out the back you know a foot and a half two feet out you know with these great big white walls I mean
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it was a real pimpmobile you know uh just certainly not anything you know
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that that fit the Don Groves look because he went to work every day in a
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mercedesbenz but this car was parked you know specifically in front of his home
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and um every day whether he went to work or whether he didn't go to work he got a
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paycheck if he was drunk that day and didn't go to work never got fired got
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promoted um I think his feeling that his son was killed and you know by the
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government and what they were doing is they were basically paying him to shut up and um and his and his way of of
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reacting to that was every year he'd get a different car that car was supposed to
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be handed down to a lower executive to drive but the car was basically sent
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back and completely dismantled and junked and every year he ordered another
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car and it was more ghastly than the last one and it parked in front of his
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house um uh so at one point um uh I had
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an opportunity to meet the daughter Darby uh so uh I would say probably
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1972 um I met the daughter very shortly after having dinner with the Groves
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where he divulged this information about his son and and his belief and showed showed me pictures um of the of the
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funeral that was supplied by the government I don't know if it was the military the White House but it was
30:15
supplied by the government and by the way that he also showed me a letter from Mark Lane Mark Lane wrote a letter to to
30:22
The Groves and is basically identifying himself as saying he represent Ed
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margarit Oswald which was Lee Harvey Oswald's mother and in it there's a
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quotation that he put in quote from Margaret Oswell saying my son Lee was
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killed like your son by the government and my son had a CIA number thus and
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such and so and so well I I wish I had a photographic memory that I could remember the CIA number you know uh
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anyway they were making some introduction with uh with the Groves so
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I don't think that Mark Lane reached out to the Groves I think that very likely
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the Groves had reached out to Mark Lane because Mark Lane was the first one to write the book you know rush to judgment
31:14
and I think based upon them seeing that someone else didn't believe this the the
31:21
the official story you know um I think they probably reached out to him and
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then he sent a letter back to them at some point I tried to get a hold of uh
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Mark Lane because I think he was on Facebook and I tried to identify myself as having lived next to the Groves is I
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I heard nothing back from from Mark Lane and to be honest with you I don't think Mark Lane is alive today if he is he's
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very he's not he yes he's passed that's correct he has passed he has passed uh anyway the the the the daughter Darby
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got out of her car and she's she parked in front of my house because she couldn't couldn't park in front of her
31:58
parents' house because this great big Lincoln Continental was sitting in front of that house so he parked in front I
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was right next door so she got out of the car happened to be standing there she looked at me and she said you know
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are you the neighbor that my father had dinner with and spoke about my brother and I said yeah yes I am and she just
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said you know they killed my brother you know she said and and and she was she
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was taking two of her children out of the car and she said and they and they
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threatened me they told me that if I didn't shut up that I I I wouldn't see
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my kids that they'd take my kids away from me or they would commit her something to
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that effect and it was a they so she wasn't she didn't say you know it was this person or that person it was just a
32:46
they um so it was you know more confirmation that everybody in the family was uh you know definitely uh
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believed that uh something nefarious had happened U uh first first with Don and
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glattus a son and certainly with h with Darby's brother U anyway we looked into
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all of that we attempted to track down some information I went looking on um uh
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uh one of the websites that does DNA uh
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ancestry.com um there was an article that was written on n.com they were looking into whatever happened to Mary
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um uh Groves she had gone back a week after
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uh I a week I think it was on December 12th or something um she came back well
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probably a couple of days before that she came back to Birmingham she had rented an apartment and uh and and a
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mysterious fire broke out in in her apartment and all of her husband's uh um
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records files were destroyed in the fire and uh I think that I don't know
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whether or not there were two photo albums you know one perhaps in uh
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Captain Grove's widow's possession and one in Captain Grove's parents
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possession but I certainly saw one of the photo albums of the funeral um and I
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certainly saw the Mark Lane letter that was written to G in gladus groves so
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um uh interestingly I moved back to California in
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1975 um and uh three years later um
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Darby died I don't know what she died of she was in her 30s I gather at the time
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and um she predeceased uh both her parents um
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and that that's pretty much the story that I have to tell I you know uh every once in a while I go back and I think of
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some other little tidbit you know that I you know that I that I remember and uh I
35:10
said oh I should have mentioned that but uh um there's just I've read you know
35:17
I've read articles about all of the people who died um that been kind of
35:22
connected in some way you know with the Kennedy assassination whether they're on whether they were on the grassy nle you
35:29
know whether they heard shots coming from you know the grassy the you know the grassy null or from from The Book
35:37
Depository or whatever uh you know people people died I mean lots of people
35:42
may have had heart attacks might have died of cancer there's lots of people you know that fall into that category
35:48
I'm not sure exactly what the numbers are then obviously there were other people who um you know had more um you
35:55
know more more tell they saw something they heard something um uh they were
36:01
police officers uh they were reporters um you know that also died
36:06
people know Dorothy kill Gallen for example you know had interviews the next thing you know she's has a bombshell
36:13
report the next thing she's found dead the report is given to her assistant
36:18
who's who dies two days later I mean these are the kinds of story but regardless of who they are there was
36:25
never any mention of Captain Michael David
36:32
Groves and that name was never mentioned I mean I'm the only one that has been trying to get this name out you know for
36:39
someone to do more more research was he in bomb the 27y old uh captain of the
36:46
guard at 27 dies of a heart attack who determin
36:53
that quite quite yeah I was going to say I a couple of questions for you um did
36:59
the family ever express a position or a a conclusion on
37:07
what they thought was the reason for the delay or the error in the uh in the
37:14
dates of his death I mean it doesn't seem particularly if it was such a public event that might have been
37:21
chronicled in so many different ways perhaps in the paper or otherwise that they would still be able to have his
37:29
funeral and uh still have a a more than a week's difference between the actual
37:36
date that yeah no and you know what that wasn't that that wasn't brought up then and uh and and the reason that I'm
37:43
bringing it up is because I subsequently was looking up uh uh the date of his
37:49
death in the in the in the white house uh in some White House papers and also
37:54
um at Arlington so in one of the White House documents it mentions that he died
38:00
on the thir and he was buried on the 6th and his and and the uh headstone at
38:05
Arlington National Cemetery says the third and the sixth but that wasn't brought up by The Groves at that time
38:12
they never mention that to me I hadn't heard about that only thing I the only thing I heard about was after the fact
38:19
in other words after I looked into it I said I don't get it these two dates are completely conflicting so never one of
38:25
the reasons why I was talking to Bobby Hayden Bobby Hayden then goes no he didn't die on the third I was notified
38:32
that he died the day wased so um you know that that stuck in my mind that
38:40
here's a guy on the scene at the time um standing uh standing guard at the
38:45
Eternal Flame and then coming back to the barracks and then being told that evening that Captain Michael Groves had
38:52
died of a heart attack um so the numbers uh Michael um cap Bobby Bobby Hayden um
39:00
says no that's a wrong date and his his response to that was oh they got it wrong they made a mistake it was very
39:09
busy did the parents uh obviously they they had their suspicions were there
39:14
other particulars that they might have uh touched upon obviously it sounds like
39:20
he was quite sensitive to being quiet about it maybe perhaps given
39:26
the circumstance that you described but were there other times other than that
39:32
sort of initial conversation I get I get the impression that that that was said
39:38
um and I think that much of it they were holding close to the vest okay so I didn't get the impression
39:46
that uh this was some this this didn't seem to be something that they spoke with every neighbor about as a matter of
39:52
fact um uh I remember after having dinner there uh I was talking to some of
39:58
the other neighbors because on the other side of them was was a couple Jackie om
40:03
Ali and her husband and other people that we had become friends with in the neighborhood um they indicated to me
40:10
that uh that I should stay away from the Groves as that they were
40:16
troubled uh and I and I thought told them you know I think that they're very nice people they're very respectful
40:23
people um you know they have a story to tell they don't beli that their you know son um just died of a heart
40:31
attack uh and they basically said stay away from them I don't know what they I don't know
40:39
if you know if they were there they may have been living there during the during
40:45
the uh 1963 I don't know I didn't show up until
40:52
1971 I don't think but I didn't really have ongoing conversations with them about it it just appeared to me that
41:00
this was something that they spoke about they didn't want to talk about it anymore in other words they didn't want
41:05
me to know any more than they had already said and uh and it may be
41:11
something that they were being protective of me sure sure you know they basically you know gladus said you know
41:19
you know my husband likes you you rem you you remind him of his son that I
41:25
reminded of you know Don Groves of of Michael Groves you know I was you know
41:31
in in in my late 20s you know I was married I had a kid that was three years
41:36
old four years old you know uh uh he at that time at the time of of Michael
41:42
gross's death his he had a a daughter kellyanne I believe and his wife was
41:48
pregnant seven months so um we were my wife and I and and son at that time were
41:55
about the same age as his son wife and child were then and I I guess I had uh I my
42:05
appearance was similar to his his son and I think he took to me that basically
42:11
all I can all I can surmise did you did you ever subsequently catch up with with Mary was
42:19
there some no matter of fact I attempted to only thing I was ever able to find out was I I think she she remarried her
42:28
last name became Johnson I mean as if as if that's not a
42:33
you know that's a hard enough name to track down anyway you know so Johnson
42:39
and I don't know what ever happened to her and uh even in the ancestry.com piece um they don't know
42:46
what happened to her they were never able to track her down they were actually asking for people to if they
42:52
had any information to please come back to them with it I don't know if she if she left Birmingham I never met with her
42:59
in Birmingham and I don't and I don't believe she um was living in Birmingham
43:05
at the time I never in the years that I lived next to him I didn't see her show
43:10
up at um da and Gladis his house nor did I see the uh the grandkids show up the
43:16
only the only grandchildren I saw show up were Barbie's children interesting how about the
43:23
autopsy report you you touched upon that briefly before uh were you ever able to
43:30
gain access or was anyone else ever one one would think there should have been one because I don't think when you die
43:37
of a heart attack at 27 um that you have to have an autopsy I
43:43
mean it's certainly in California that's a requirement you know unless you've been suffering from some terminal
43:49
illness like cancer you know uh uh or dealing with uh or dealing with the
43:56
cardiovascular diseases you know on a for years and years and years and then all of a sudden you die you know there
44:03
may there may not it may not be necessary depending upon your age if you're over 65 or something like that to
44:09
have an autopsy but if you're younger than 65 and you and you die I I in
44:15
California there's a law that you have to have an autopsy so I don't know what it was like in uh uh in uh in Virginia
44:24
uh or in Washington at that time what the requirement may or may not have been and I don't know that there is an
44:31
autopsy it would be interesting to find out were you uh I think you may have
44:37
mentioned perhaps in our earlier conversation before uh we got together for this Taping that you may have
44:43
tracked down and reached other members of the of the guard and if you did can
44:49
you comment were there other comments made by them regarding this whole circumstance the
44:56
only thing that I can say about not only my my contact uh with them but also Dave
45:03
Smallwood's contact with them is they all had a sort of a canned response they
45:09
all they all repeated almost exactly uh what they were told uh if you spoke to
45:15
any one of them um they all sounded exactly the same uh when you ask him was
45:21
there any chatter about uh you know uh the assassination being done by the
45:28
Russians or the assassination by the Cubans was there any you know was there any of that um chatter going on among
45:37
the members of the military everybody says no um nobody was talking about that and
45:44
everybody it's it's kind of like uh it it reminded me a little bit of the movie The Manchurian Candidate where you know
45:52
nobody likes um nobody likes this particular officer and yet anytime
45:57
someone says what do you think about so so they would say oh he's the kindest
46:02
bra wonderful person I've ever had the opportunity to meet that's what they
46:08
would come out with that would be kind of like just this mechanic this mechanic
46:14
uh basically telling you this story but in reality in the movie nobody nobody
46:19
likes him everybody despises him but when ask what they think about him they
46:24
immediately come up the same statement interesting so I uh that's quite um
46:33
that's quite a quite a story quite a story and the other point that I was goingon to make is we contacted one
46:38
person and we spoke to the wife instead of the husband because the husband was
46:45
suffering from dementia perhaps Alzheimer's I think she said he's got Alzheimer's and it wouldn't be any it
46:52
wouldn't be any point talking with him so we spoke with her she was also you
46:57
know obviously the husband was was was based in Washington so I guess so was she and she basically said the same
47:03
thing in other words the same thing that the other participants at that time were
47:09
saying she was saying the same thing so so it they were given they were told
47:15
this story that's what they ran with and that and B other than the fact that what
47:21
they were doing at the time whether they were retrieving the casket or attempting to retrieve casket from the plane cuz
47:27
there was that because that was part of the part of the cemetery Squad there you know that's what the that's what the
47:34
what the honor guard did in essence besides being being the public face of the White House they were involved in
47:40
funerals and they were involved in retrieving the Cascades and so on and so forth besides many of these people
47:46
talking about when we got there the Secret Service would not let us do our job you know they told us to move away
47:52
they didn't want us to handle a casket so on and so forth and how they followed them you know how they followed the the
47:59
the the the the uh the the uh the limousine with the with Kennedy's body
48:04
and how they went to the to the took him to the morg and so on and so forth everybody has that story so they mostly
48:11
tell their they mostly tell their involvement of it but there isn't much
48:17
going on in terms of anything else it's that I found they they they really
48:23
displayed no new information to me the only person that I found to be
48:29
interesting was Bobby Hayden and that was because number one he was surprised
48:34
about the date of death because he says no that's not the right date and um he
48:41
didn't want to specifically talk about um uh any any uh conspiracy theories and
48:49
interestingly enough he was interestingly enough he was in I think he was invited back to the White House
48:56
under the Obama Administration and he met with President Obama and and his name was read into the
49:03
Congressional Record by someone you know who was then a representative in in in
49:09
Washington at the time they read his name into the Congressional Record and I asked him about his meeting with Obama
49:16
and did did he did he bring up this issue about about about the Kennedy
49:22
assassination and he says I'm not going to discuss any anything that we spoke about in the White
49:28
House interesting certainly imply said you
49:33
know hey he's a black guy you know you're a black guy the president's been murdered he's now the president did you
49:40
tell him hey guy you need to be careful or something you know no he wouldn't he wouldn't discuss anything that they
49:47
spoke of interesting very interesting do you have uh obviously it would be total
49:53
speculation based upon the conversation we just had but do you have in your own mind some Theory as to why they uh
50:03
postdated so to speak the obituary well I think number one they
50:09
were trying to put distance between his death and and and
50:14
the Kennedy assassination I mean um the fact that it was you know uh you know a
50:20
week later whatever that length of time is there was a lot of other things going on in the media wasn't in a frenzy they'
50:27
already buried the they'd already buried uh uh uh uh Kennedy um uh Lee Harvey
50:33
Oswald was buried as well I think may may very well have been on the very same day could have been on the on the on
50:40
November 25th I'm not I'm not sure um but he was disposed up pretty quickly um
50:47
and uh uh Michael um Michael Captain Michael Groves is the closest thing to
50:54
the White House house in other words if you take all of these conspiracy theories and I don't care which one they
51:01
are the Russians the Cubans the Israelis the the Mafia the the some combination
51:08
of the people who were pissed off at the Bay of Pigs you know whatever whatever you want to deal with throw them all
51:14
throw them all in a big basket okay Michael grov is the closest thing to the
51:19
White House everybody else is in almost peripheral to that if Michael gr's death
51:28
occurs on the 20 on the 25th of no of November the day of Kennedy's uh Dave
51:33
Kennedy burial okay and he dies under mysterious circumstances you know and
51:39
then whatever happens in Burmingham Michigan on the 12th or whenever that
51:44
happens and a house and an apartment fire destroys all of Michael gr's
51:49
memorabilia you know I I think they tried to push that as far as they could
51:55
away away from the White House the the uh other I don't know if this is a fact
52:00
you may be able to validate this but I did read somewhere that you know
52:05
obviously these uh these folks were handpicked and at one point uh Michael
52:12
himself actually babysitted John John is that true yeah I did hear that yeah and
52:18
that was because they both had young children both both both the Kennedy and and the and and Michael Gro and his wife
52:24
had had a young child and uh they they according to according to the parents
52:29
they became uh pretty friendly again uh once again I think it had to do with the
52:35
fact that Michael Groves was hand selected by Kennedy to to be the captain of the
52:41
Guard um and again I'm not sure you know it would be very interesting to talk to
52:47
some military people because I don't know whether things have changed at the White House you know and and and what
52:53
the parents were telling me that it is in fact fact the military Outpost and that and that the that third regiment or
53:00
whatever that the guard basically protects the commanderin-chief of the Armed
53:05
Forces um uh yeah
53:12
I how about I think they got pretty I think they got pretty close because of their because of the association with
53:18
their wives and and their kids yeah I mean you have to wonder especially Jacqueline in the a aftermath having
53:26
somebody in that J to position pass so quickly who was clearly for all intents and purpose as a
53:33
healthy individual and uh I I would think well where did where did Jacqueline Kennedy go she ran to
53:42
Onasis yeah no doubt no doubt I mean she she wanted to leave the
53:48
country I think she also probably ran to Robert Kennedy as well I think that the relationship that they had uh
53:56
look what happened to him yeah yeah for sure