How a Government Mind Control Experiment Backfired

Today's guest is University of Texas historian John Lisle, author of the chilling and brilliantly researched Project Mind Control: Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA, and the Tragedy of MKUltra.

Despite official attempts to destroy records of the CIA’s LSD-fueled search for mind control in the 1950s and ’60s, the truth has been dribbling out, especially in recent books and documentaries like Steven Kinzer’s Poisoner in Chief and Errol Morris’ Wormwood.

Lisle's work draws on previously unknown depositions and documents to deliver the most definitive—and disturbing—account yet. He discusses the twisted logic of Cold War secrecy, the bizarre figures behind and victims of America’s darkest experiments, and what MKUltra reveals about the dangers of unchecked power in a democracy.

And this might be the most important thing: He and Nick Gillespie talk about why conspiracy theories thrive in the absence of transparency—and how to preserve skepticism without surrendering to paranoia.

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0:00 – Intro
1:32 – What is MKUltra?
3:42 – Brainwashing origins in the Korean War
6:50 – Who is Sidney Gottlieb?
10:43 – The CIA’s start-up culture
20:37 – Who is Ewen Cameron?
24:32 – Jolly West and implanting memories
28:24 – MKUltra gets shut down
31:08 – How MKUltra documents came to light
39:38 – Main lessons from MKUltra
46:57 – Politicization of intelligence agencies
51:03 – Conspiracy thinking and the legacy of MKUltra
58:31 – Covid and the collapse of righteous authority