Is 'wokeness' finally dead? | John McWhorter | The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie

New York Times columnist and linguist John McWhorter discusses the rise and fall of "woke," DEI and affirmative action, and his new book on the history of pronouns.

https://reason.com/podcast/2025/02/26/john-mcwhorter-is-wokeness-finally-dead/

0:00—Introduction
1:10—The "woke racism" recession
7:01—The arts and academia are still "woke"
11:30—Donald Trump's attacks on DEI
16:40—Individuals vs. groups
18:24—The emotional cost of affirmative action
20:05—The immaturity of the "woke right"
21:46—McWhorter's political identity
27:20—Attitude shifts about race and class
32:27—TV got better, movies got worse
36:10—McWhorter's new book, Pronoun Trouble
41:51—They is a pretty good gender-neutral pronoun
44:57—Mixing high and low culture

Today's guest is Columbia University linguist and New York Times columnist John McWhorter. In 2021, he published Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America, which argued that politically correct "antiracism" was not only a new religion but a dangerous form of illiberalism that quashed free expression, individual liberty, and social progress.

McWhorter talks with Reason's Nick Gillespie about how far we've come since 2021—and whether we are entering a new era of open debate and cultural possibilities. They also discuss the apparent end of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs, McWhorter's own experience with affirmative action over his decades in academia, and his forthcoming book Pronoun Trouble: The Story of Us in Seven Little Words, which comes out in April.