2ND Interview w/ James Files (2003) Man Who Shot PRESIDENT JFK - Grassy Knoll Shooter

Grassy Knoll Shooter James Files UNEDITED Interview (Nov 19, 2003)

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James Files UNEDITED Interview – The Real Story

Cast of Characters:

Location: Stateville Prison Joliet, Illinois

James Files – Confessed assassin of headshot to JFK

Pamela Ray – Author and close friend of James Files since 1999 – was supposed to be at 2003 interview with James Files

Jim Marrs – Author and person Pamela Ray agreed to have interview James Files in 2003

Gary Beebe – Cameraman

Mrs. French – Stateville Prison administration person

Wim Dankbaar – Dutch salesman

Unedited film starts with James Files entering room and agitated and asking

JF: Where’s Pamela?

WD: Uh…she’s okay with it.

JF: Huh?

WD: She’s okay with it.

JF: She’s supposed to be a part of this!

WD: (papers shuffling) uh…here’s the agreement (2003 Ray/Dankbaar Joint Venture/Revenue Sharing Agreement that Dankbaar has been in breach of since 2003)

JM: We came up here earlier and she was with us and the prison authorities said that they can’t allow – or their rules are they don’t allow family, friends, close associates and media in. We tried to talk with them and they said, “No, that’s the way it is” and so she wrote you this note…

(Pamela Ray wrote a note to James Files basically explaining what happened in front of the prison that morning and she was assured by Dankbaar that the agreement would be honored. She encouraged James Files in the note, despite being promised to be at the interview, to go ahead and do the interview to help publish their book in 2004. Dankbaar interfered with the book’s publisher in 2004 and the publisher did not want to go further with Dankbaar’s constant interference as a supposed “Silent Partner”. He subsequently took material from the publisher and put out a book without Pamela Ray or James Files permission or approval in 2005.

James Files checked into this “No family, friends or close associates with media rule” and evidently it was NOT a prison rule and someone at the prison was lying about whether or not Pamela Ray was allowed to be there for the interview. Mrs. French was present at both the confrontation in front of the prison when Pamela Ray was supposed to go in as well as in the interview room later.

Pamela Ray, speaking with Jim Marrs several months later about the situation, when she told Marrs what James Files said about it NOT being a prison rule said, “Oh really? That is not what I understood.” Jim Marrs was NOT in on the deception and treachery. Dankbaar was 100% behind it and never honored the agreement.)

JM: So she wrote you this note, I’m going to have to ask for it back ‘cause they said you could get in trouble if you tried to take it out of here.

JF: (Puts on reading glasses)

(Stateville employee – Mrs. French enters room)

MF: If he’s going to do the interview I have to get his consent…

JM: Wait a minute. Let’s see what he says…
JF: (Reading note)

WD: Jimmy, we also have the agreement here that she signed…

JF: Okay (still reading) I cannot sign an agreement like that (Pointing to 2003 Ray/Dankbaar Joint Venture/Revenue Sharing Agreement in Dankbaar’s hand) You see, I can sign no contracts…

WD: No, I know…

JF: You gotta understand, prisoners are not allowed to engage or enter into any contracts. That’s why she (Pamela Ray) has to take care of that.

WD: Right

JF: (Back to reading Pamela’s note)

GB: (Cameraman) Does that include a model release? A model release to use this footage?

MF: Pardon?

GB: Does that include a release allowing us to use this footage?

WD: Right. That’s what this is.

MF: He’s agreeing to…

JF: I gave one of those to Bob Vernon also…

MF: He agreed to this.

JF: (To Mrs. French) Can I see your pen for a minute? (Leaning over table)

MF: Sure…

JF: (Sits down to write note on Pamela’s note)

JM: I guess you can tell by what she wrote there…

JF: That’s why I type all my letters because I have terrible handwriting…

GB: Wim move (Dankbaar stepping into frame)

WD: (To James Files) She was all tears by the way, but I guess you can tell.

JM: Yeah, you can tell that from whatever she wrote…

JF: (Writing on note to give back to Jim Marrs. Files, assured that Pamela Ray would be taken care of, agreed to proceed with the interview. James Files and Jim Marrs made some small talk about Gordon Gray, UFO’s, J. Allen Hynek, Edward Teller, UFO’s and Special Ops, James Files taking some pictures and the military confiscating them from him.)

JF: I just had to ask you about Gordon Gray and Majestic Twelve ‘cause I was always amazed at that.

JM: You read Rule by Secrecy didn’t you?

JF: Yeah, I got it now. I got it in my box.

JM: Where did you get it?

JF: I got it from Barry Falls. Barry Falls is a great admirer and friend of yours.

JM: That’s right.

JF: From Massachusetts…he’s the one who sent me your address and ask me to write to you and I wrote you the letter and told you I can’t contact anybody directly, it has to go through Pamela. Did you get that letter?

JM: Yeah, is it the one with the ships drawn on ‘em?

JF: Yeah.

JM: I want to tell ya you’re a good artist.

Beginning of JFK interview questions with James Files and Jim Marrs

Q – What is your recollection of how Joe West contacted you and what did you think of Joe West?

A – Joe West originally contacted me here at Stateville prison when I was on a visit. The counselor came in the visiting room where I was at and stated that she wanted me to come out and make a phone call. I told her, “No way, I’m here 365 days a year. I’m not leaving my visit to make a phone call. I said, “Who’s calling?” Someone from Texas named Joe West. I do not know the party. Tell ‘m I call them on my time, not their time. I’m on a visit. Don’t bother me while I am on a visit. The next day they come and got me out of my cell, they took me downstairs; they got a phone call hooked up. I call Joe West to talk to him. I told him: You have 3 minutes to convince me why I should talk to you. As Joe started talking to me, I told him: Woo, stop! You go through a lot of touchy spots; these phone calls are all recorded. Every phone call going in and coming out is recorded. If you want to talk to me that bad, then I suggest you come and visit me. Joe West had me put him on the visiting list. He came up to visit me. He spent two days of talking with me. The first day I wouldn’t even talk to him about the Kennedy situation. We got into sports; weather, generally about prison, local things till I got comfortable with him. The next day, after I had thought it over all night, Joe West seemed like a pretty nice guy, I really liked Joe. He had magnetism about him. The next day we sit down and got serious and then we started talking. I sit in the visiting room with Joe. They gave us a pencil and paper. I sketched the entire Dealey Plaza out for him, without any maps, without pictures, nothing present, and I explained to Joe at that time because Joe wanted to know where I was at. And I said: I’m going to put an X on the paper, to signify me, but this X is not in the correct spot. I said: When the time comes, then I’ll put the X where it is supposed to be.

Q- What had you told him that Joe knew you were in Dealey Plaza?

A – Oh, I asked him. He said that someone had informed him that I was there. He said he had a reliable source. And I didn’t know for quite a while who that source was. It was quite some time later before I learned the fact that the FBI was aware of my presence as early as 1964. Because I never knew that anyone ever knew about me. But Zack Shelton, from what I understand, and I’m only quoting this from hearsay, that Zack was the one that stated and gave to Joe West the information on me: that I was in Dealey Plaza.

Q – That’s my understanding. Did you ever actually confess to taking the shot to Joe West?

A- No, I never did.

Q- Make a statement.

A- Well, the whole thing is, like with Joe West … Joe West died. He passed away, never knowing that I was one of two shooters there in Dealey Plaza that day. Joe West never knew I was on the grassy knoll.

Q- Do you have any thoughts on his death? Do you think that was natural?

A- Joe West went in for heart surgery. And from what I was told and from what I understood, that he had come through it very well and he was on the road to recovery. But then I was informed there was complications with his medicine, he was allergic to it or had an allergy or something. But it killed him, the medication killed him. A couple of years ago, maybe a year and a half ago, I heard through the grapevine, and I won’t go into the party that brought this information to me, they said that someone had tampered with Joe’s medication and he had received the wrong medication. Because they wanted to silence him.

Q – That’s (also) according to his wife.

A- And why would they want to silence him?

Q- We had … I shouldn’t say we, Joe West had the case in court; he wanted to exhume John F. Kennedy’s body. And that’s what he was fighting for. And at this point when I talked to Joe West, I explained to him that John F. Kennedy had been hit in the head with a mercury round, a special load. At this point I explained to him he can use this in the court to have the body exhumed because there would still be traces of mercury because the traces of mercury do not disappear. That will always be there. So this is what Joe West wanted to go back with, more evidence, and use this to get Kennedy’s body exhumed. To look for traces of mercury.

Q- And the court had accepted his case?

A- The court had accepted his case. But with his death, the case died.

Q- Do you feel like your memory is as good as it was 10 years ago?

A- No, I do not, it’s not that good. My memory as of 10 years ago was a lot more alert than what it is now. It’s not that I’m just getting old and senile, but it’s the conditions of prison, the conditions we live under. Our water here, when people come in and I’m sure you was advised not to drink the water from here and to buy a bottle of water. I’ve been drinking this water for the past 12 years with radium in it, so has every prisoner here. We wasn’t aware of the water situation until Oliver Stone comes along to make a movie here. And when he made his movie here, we see all these people from the movie company running around carrying bottles of water. Even the officers that worked here, they got suspicious and that’s when we started finding out: this water is unhealthy.

Q- Just at the side, you know: Sodium fluoride is what they put in some city’s water supplies. That’s what the Nazi’s put in the water supplies of those concentration camps to keep everybody pacified.

A- Yeah, well, they keep us pretty well pacified and they really kept us pacified since we went on about a ten month lockdown and they took the prison back and run it under their order now. And I mean this place is really maximum control now. There is no movement here at all to speak of.

Q- Did you actually meet Oliver Stone?

A- I met Oliver Stone three times. As a matter of fact I have a paper that Joe West no excuse me, not Joe West but Bob Vernon, had Oliver Stone sign. Now Bob Vernon had come in after the Joe West deal. Bob Vernon took over for Joe West. Bob Vernon met with Oliver Stone and he had him sign an agreement where they wanted to get me on film, but I refused to do that. I met with Oliver Stone three times.

Q- And you never told him your story?

A- No, I did not tell Oliver Stone my story. I refused to discuss it with him and like I say, I’ve got a copy and it’s got Oliver Stone’s signature on it. Bob Vernon’s’ the only signature that states what it’s all about, the only thing missing is my signature because I would never sign that paper for the agreement.

Q- Why was that?

A- I didn’t like the man!

Q- Case closed!

A- Case closed! And if you’d like I would be more than happy to send you a copy of the document. And it has got Oliver Stone’s original signature on it. And it has Bob Vernon’s signature on it.

Q- Well, I’ve got a whole bunch of questions, you understand what we’re doing, and we’re doing this new interview to help you and Pam,

A-Right

Q- Let’s just go back in chronology, just tell me your own account again. Go back to when you first learned there was a plot to kill Kennedy and then just bring us forward and how it all came about.

A- Okay, the first time that I knew about anything being planned on Kennedy. Oh, I heard a lot of rumors, nobody liked Kennedy, they wanted to kill Kennedy, they wanted to assassinate him. They wanted to do everything to the man.

Q- Were you kind of upset with him yourself?

A- Oh I was upset with him over the Bay of Pigs, but I never paid any attention to any of this at first, because you know, everybody talks, somebody gets mad at somebody and right away: I’m gonna take this guy out, I’m gonna get that person out, woo, woo, woo, woo! You know, a lot of barking, junkyard dogs barking you know. But I was sitting in the Harlo Grill that evening, playing the pinball machine. Not the flipper kind, the kind with numbers where you gamble on, you put about 10 dollars in to play a game. And Charles Nicoletti walked in. The man that I did a lot of work with, a man that I respected. And he walked in the back room where I was at, he says: Jimmy let’s go! I said: I’ll be with you in a minute! He reached over the machine to me and he said: Let’s go now! My reply was: Yes sir, Mr. Nicoletti! I knew he was in no mood to wait and hang around. He said: I wanna talk to you. I went out and we got into his car and went for a ride, and we made it a basic habit not to sit around in restaurants, talk, discussing things like that with a lot of people hearing. And we went for a ride and he told me: We are going to do a friend of yours! And I said: Jesus, what the hell did he do now? Because I thought he was referring to one of my friends in town, he had been robbing the pinball machines and the cigarette machines; he had a 1000-dollar-a-day-heroin habit. He was an all out junky, you know. They had beaten him up several times and everything else and threatened him, but so far they had never gone as far as to kill him. Chuck laughs at me and he says, “No, not him, I’m talking about President Kennedy, JFK.” And I looked at him and says, “What? He says, “JFK, your buddy!”

I think he’s just busting my… you know, giving me a hard time. He knew JFK and he knew how much I disliked the man. So I looked at him and I laughed. I said: Okay, fine! Fine with me! You get no arguments there! And at this point I still kind of thought, you know, he was just joking with me. But then he got real serious about it. And we started talking and he says, “I want you to look around, search the areas around the town” he says, “You know everything pretty good. See where we are going to do it at, what kind of weapons we are going to need and other things like that. And he says: (inaudible) is going to bring Johnny Roselli in on it. Fine with me, I like workin’ with Johnny; I have no problems with him. And originally we had planned to do it in the Chicago area, but certain people didn’t like that idea, so we put it off and this like six months before the assassination ever really took place.

Q- But you were not supposed to be a shooter?

A- Oh no, never, I was not a shooter, I was … Let’s put it this way: I was to go for this, go for that, pick this up, pick that up, run around, driving around. When Chuck went somewhere, I was always with him.

Q- Did you ever get wind that the Secret Service might have found out about the plot in Chicago?

A- No, I did get no wind on that at all. I just knew that certain people high up in organized crime, they weren’t too happy about the idea of having something like that happen of that magnitude in their backyard. Because they figured Bobby would really be down there and they already had their own little private wars going. So we decided where to take the move, I had no idea it was going to Texas at that point. This had come to me down the road.

Q- About when was that?

A- Well, I wanna say… probably two and half, three months, maybe four, before I ever made the trip to Texas that they were talking about it. Because they didn’t know where he was gonna go. They were looking for an area to go. But then they had heard that he possibly may take this trip to Texas, but there was nothing definite. And I didn’t go to Texas until that had been confirmed. And… they had several different locations, there was New Orleans and I don’t know, there was other places he was going to. But when it came down to it, I had been told there was places that they had planned to do it, other people had been authorized and stuff like that, you know, just different rumors you hear. How much credibility there is to it, I cannot say. But when the time had come and we knew it was going to be serious and Chuck was sending me to Texas, that’s when I went down on Belmont Avenue, the old (inaudible) place where they made the pinball machines. I had a shed down there, a place, a backroom, that was all owned by the Outfit too, the pinball machines. I kept a cache of weapons down there; we used to do a lot of work on them there. When I say we, I refer to a party named Wolfman, who is now deceased, but at that time he was excellent, modifying weapons, manufacturing loads, whatever coming down to handguns, rifles. This guy was professionalized. He could manufacture things in his basement, like you wouldn’t believe, from silencers all down the line, he did it all for them. So I went down there, got the stuff we needed. And we had the one car that he just bought, I had already secured everything in there, we had secret compartments in it. And every car that we had, even before the ’63 Chevy, even in the ’61 Ford that we had prior to that in ’62, we had compartments in the dash where you could reach up under it and open things up, put grenades in there, handguns, whatever we might need. Behind the backseat we had gun racks in the cars. We had pull-off door panels that could snap off, we could put them back on, we had handguns and stuff in there. Whatever you might need, but we always had a work-car ready.

Q- So what did Wolfman do for you?

A- Wolfman, when I contacted him after all this went down, and this is several years later, this is when I first met Joe West and Joe West had come here and visited me, we talked and he asked me: Do you think this party called Wolfman would talk to me? And Joe asked me what his real name was and I told him: I won’t divulge that but I will call him and talk to him. So I called him on the phone and I told him I was talking to Joe West from Texas, and he wanted to know who Joe was and I explained all this to him and I said: Joe would very much like to interview you. I did not give Joe West your name but I told him that you was the one that manufactured the special rounds. He made six rounds for me to take to Texas, all mercury loaded. I said: He wants to talk to you very much. Will you talk with him? And he said: Get back to me! I’ll let you know. He said: I wanna check a few things. The following week Wolfman was dead.

Q- How did he die?

A- I believe he had a heart attack. I have been in contact with nobody that was affiliated with Wolfman since that day.

Q- Tell me about these mercury loads. Can you describe them?

A- Well, it was a 22 round and he took the tips off, he drilled them out and he inserted with an eye drop, he put mercury into the end of the round and he restyled them with wax. This is to make them explode on impact.

Q- Okay, so now you got your weapons ready, now describe the car.

A- The car was a ’63 Chevy two door Burgundy. Chevy Impala.

Q- With the special compartment?

A- Oh yeah, we had a special compartment in the dash, we had the backseat, you could take that off, pull the bottom part up, raise the back up, snap it up little clams and take that out. We had the springs removed behind the seat there by it and we had little racks welded in there so we could mount weapons in there.

Q- Okay, so now you’ve got your weapons, you got your loads and you got your car. How did it come together after that?

A- Well, just before I left, the final instructions Chuck told me: I want you to leave first thing in the morning. He said: I don’t want you driving at night. I want you on the highway with a lot traffic during daytime where nobody pays any attention to you.

Q- Go back and give me a date or approximately.

A- I don’t remember the date but I went down like week before the assassination. I wanna say I was in the Dallas area five days before the assassination took place.

Q- And what was the purpose of that?

A- The purpose of that was for me to go to Dallas, look over the area, learn dead-end streets, railroad crossings, times of train crossings. They already knew the regular motorcade route that he would be taking, and they had already looked that over and they wanted to see if there were any better places. A lot of people had already decided on, I’m not the one that chose Dealey Plaza, but I was told to look it over very closely and see if I thought there was any place better. And I did the whole area from the route they had. All the way through I had Lee Harvey Oswald with me.

Q- All right, go back, about a week ahead of time, I think it was on Monday as I recall?

A- I’m not sure…

Q- Okay, but you left Chicago. Let’s start .You left Chicago and you went to…

A- No, I didn’t leave on a Monday. I left on left either on a Thursday or a Friday morning, I don’t remember which, I know I was in Mesquite, Texas Saturday morning. Because that was when Lee Harvey Oswald showed up at the motel where I was at. I arrived there on a Friday. I’m pretty sure it was Friday when I arrived there.

Q- Did you call anybody when you got to Dallas?

A- I made two telephone calls when I got there. I called Charles Nicoletti; I told him I was on the scene and where I was at in case he had to reach me. I turned around and made another phone call, I called David Atlee Phillips. I had a number to call, the call was put through to David Phillips and he was notified where I was at. Because I had not told him in advance that I was going to Dallas, Texas.

Q- And why did you call David Atlee Phillips?

A- Because he always had to know where I was at because he was my controller?

Q- For?

A- CIA purposes, special operations or something that might be needed done.

Q- Were you supposed to stay in contact with him?

A- We always stayed in contact. We had numbers to call.

Q- What happened after that?

A- He said „thank you” and let it go with that. We didn’t have any great discussion on the phone; I told him where I was at, the location. And through David Atlee Phillips is the only way that Lee Harvey Oswald could have known where I was at. Because I called no one else. I made two phone calls.

Q- Where were you staying?

A- I was staying at the Lamplighter Inn, right there in Mesquite, Texas.

Q- And then the next thing you knew, Lee Harvey Oswald shows up.

A- The following morning Lee Harvey Oswald was there. When he knocked on the door, I opened the door and I was shocked to see him, because I didn’t think that anybody knew where I was at except for these other two people.

Q- Why is Phillips the only one who could have sent Lee Harvey Oswald?

A- Because Charles Nicoletti had never met Lee Harvey Oswald.

Q- He didn’t know him?

A- He did not know him.

Q- You say you were shocked to see him, but did you know Lee Harvey Oswald?

A- I had known Lee Harvey Oswald prior to that, yes.

Q- How did you know him?

A- I knew him from earlier operations that we were on with David Phillips when I was running semi automatic 45 caliber submachine guns down to Clinton, Louisiana. They were, I think they were manufactured by Knoxville Arms. They were not the old Thompson, they looked like a Thompson submachine gun, but they were not Thompson. They were only semi automatic and they were very cheaply made.

Q- And how did you meet Lee Harvey Oswald? Who introduced you?

A- I met Lee Harvey Oswald through David Atlee Phillips. When I got down there, he introduced me to Lee.

Q- Was it your understanding that Phillips was also Oswald’s CIA contact?

A- I learned that when I was down there. That is the first time he introduced me to Lee Harvey Oswald and he also instructed me that Lee could be trusted and that he was Lee’s controller.

Q- I need that as a statement

A- He made it a statement. Because I wanted to know who I was dealing with and who I was giving weapons to.

Q- No, I need you to make a statement that “I was introduced by Phillips, who was my CIA handler and I was told that he was Oswald’s handler.”

A- We didn’t call them handlers back then, we called them controllers.

Q- Okay.

A- Okay, David Atlee Phillips, he introduced me to Lee Harvey Oswald. And upon doing this, he also explained to me that he was Lee Harvey Oswald’s controller, the same as he was mine. That he was always in contact with Lee, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Q- So that’s how you know. That’s where the word came from for Oswald to come meet you in Dallas?

A- So that’s how common sense told me the only one that could have sent Lee Harvey Oswald, was David Atlee Phillips. And when I opened the door and Oswald was there, I was kind of shocked to see him, because I didn’t know that he knew I was there. And so I asked: Lee, what the hell are you doing here? Because I was shocked, you know. He said: I was advised to drop by and spend some time with you and see if I could help you out. “Help me out?” He said: Yes, somebody wants me to show you the area. And I said: Okay, come on in. So he came in and we sat down and we talked and I said: I’ll be with you in a few minutes. And I was young and cocky at that time and had just come out of the shower and everything and I was combing my hair and actually I had a camera there, so I told Lee: Hey, make a couple of pictures of me while I’m here in Texas! And so Oswald made a couple of pictures of me and then he said: Let me have the film, I can have it developed! No, no, I said, I’ll get the whole roll of film. So that’s how I got a couple of pictures made, that people have recently asked me about.

Q- Which camera was it? Yours or…?

A- My camera. But he was gonna take the film, turn it in and get it developed. But I said: No, no!

Q- You wouldn’t let that film go?

A- I do my own work!

Q- How did he arrive at the motel?

A- He arrived driving a blue Falcon. Ford Falcon.

Q- Do you remember what year model?

A- No, I don’t. It wasn’t brand new, it was a couple of years old.

Q- Mmm, so he could drive?

A- Yes, he could drive. When he met me in Clinton, Louisiana, he drove up in aah… I wanna say a Chevrolet truck, it could have been a Ford, it was a pick-up truck, let me put it that way; it was an old pick-up truck. And we put the weapons into the back end of it and pulled the tarp down over the weapons.

A- What color? Do you remember what color pick-up?

A- I believe it was green. It was a real … .I don’t know, dirty, yucky, green, whatever you gonna call it. Darker green, you know, it hadn’t been washed in a long time and there was a lot of rust on it. That’s about the best way to describe it.

Q- So did you and Lee Oswald drive around in Dallas?

A- We drove around Dallas, Lee Harvey Oswald and I, we drove around Dallas for five days right up to before the assassination. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of the assassination. But prior to that Lee Harvey Oswald had been with me every day. We drove around, he showed me different streets, different areas. He was the one that took me out to the place southeast of Mesquite there, next to a big junkyard. We went out in a field, he said: Nobody is going to bother you out here. Because I wanted to calibrate the scopes, you know, not only for the Fireball but for the other weapons as well. And while I was out there firing weapons and ejecting shell casings, Lee was picking them up and holding them in his hand. Because I didn’t want to leave no casings or nothing behind and I’m busy firing, so I looked at Lee and said, “Lee, grab them casings.” And that’s what he did. He picked them and held on to them. I calibrated my scopes, set things up, put the stuff back in to the car and we got back in. We were driving around and I wanted to know the railroad crossings, I wanted to wait and see at what times trains come through, I wanted to know if they were passengers or freight trains. Whether they stopped, intersection is gonna be blocked. Dead-end streets, construction work, where every intersection was at, where all the lights were at, how long the lights were staying red. I wanted to know all these little details.

Q- Did anybody show up or give you any static while you were out there sighting the weapons?

A- No, nobody. When I was test firing the weapons, nobody at all leaving or coming out, looked at me, and there wasn’t any house or anybody close by, we were off the main highway there. Like I say, nobody came around, nobody even cared.

Q- How much time were you two together during the day?

A- We were test firing weapons for I would say approximately 20, 30 minutes. But during the day we probably spent no more than 5 hours, 6 hours together.

Q- So all that time he could not have been working in the Texas school book depository?

A- No, he worked in the book depository store, is what he told me. I was never in that place, but he had time off to come out and spend time with me and then I would drop him off in the area and he would go somewhere and I guess that’s where he went. I never asked where he went, what he had done and who he saw.

Q- So that must have been a cover job.

A- Yeah.

Q- Okay, it gets to be let’s say Thursday before the assassination, how did it all come down?

A- That Thursday I went on back to the motel, I dropped him off that afternoon, I went on back to the motel to get some rest. And the following morning, I had gotten a message that I was supposed to call Leo at the Dallas Cabana, and I called over there and answer the phone to Leo, because Mr. Nicoletti didn’t want his name used. I knew he had come in late, I didn’t know when he had come in; I didn’t even know how he got there. But when I came in, I was told to come over there and park and Johnny Roselli was to come down. He wanted me to drive Johnny Roselli to Fort Worth. I pull out up front and waited, he came down a few minutes after I pulled up. I never went into the hotel and never asked for anybody. He came down and went outside because he knew I was in route. And I drove from there to Fort Worth, Texas with Johnny Roselli in the car.

Q- So Mr. Nicoletti went with you?

A- No, Mr. Nicoletti did not go.

Q- Just Roselli?

A- Just Johnny Roselli went with me to Fort Worth.

Q- Did you know Roselli prior to that?

A- I had met Johnny Roselli before. I met him in Florida, Miami.

Q- Did you do any jobs with him?

A- Never any jobs, but I talked with him and we went around. We were probably involved in some of the same operations and things, with the same people, but we never went out and did anything together.

Q- Were you aware that Roselli was working together with the government in anti-Castro activities?

A- Yes, I was well aware of that.

Q- Make a statement.

A- I was well aware that Johnny Roselli was involved in the government actions. He was like the liaison between CIA and organized crime. And he was heavily involved in the invasion of Cuba, the Bay of Pigs, Chinaos Bay, whichever you prefer to call it. But he was also very tight with Frank Sturgis. Frank Sturgis headed up the S.A.O., which is the Secret Army Organization, what this is all about. And they had so many different codenames for wanting to kill Castro, I wouldn’t even, I couldn’t even name half of them. But every time you turned around, somebody had a new operation going.

Q- Did you ever hear Mr. Roselli being called “Colonel” or did he have any military credentials?

A- Aah, I don’t remember what the total name was, I know he was called Colonel once in a while, I can’t remember the name of it but I know he was called Colonel. But that was uh … as far as I know Johnny Roselli never held any rank of any kind. But like I say, he was involved heavily with the CIA, he was a liaison between them, what his actual part was I don’t know, but I know he was heavily involved with them. And all through that.

Q- I think it was “Ralston – Colonel Ralston”?

A- Yeah, Ralston! That’s it! Colonel Ralston. That’s what they called him, Colonel Ralston.

Q- Okay. So tell us about the trip over to Fort Worth.

A- The trip over to Fort Worth. Well, I didn’t know we were going to Fort Worth. He told me he had directions and I don’t know if he had ever been there before or not, but we went to Fort Worth, I remember the exit was like University Avenue or University Boulevard; it was named University, that’s all I know. I know it was on the south side and then sitting on the west side of that street. Just a couple of blocks off there, the pancake house. Fairly new one.

Q- It’s still there.

A- Well, I didn’t know it’s still there, but they make good pancakes, I know that. That’s where I had my first Belgian waffle.

Q- Why did you go all the way to Fort Worth?

A- Excuse me; I’ve got to clarify one thing: I didn’t have a Belgian waffle that morning. I had the Belgian waffle there a few years later. But that morning when I got there, Johnny Roselli went there to meet somebody by the name of Jack Ruby. I had never known Jack Ruby, nothing about him. When I got there and pulled in the parking lot, Johnny Roselli told me: Let me go in first, see where I’m going to sit, come in and position yourself. And he asked me: Are you carrying? And I said: Yeah, I’m carrying. He said: Good! When I sit down, where I am sitting at, I don’t know what may transpire. He said: Something could go wrong. Be very alert! Keep my backside covered! I won’t be in your line of fire. And I said: Okay, I pick an open field of fire. Where ever I figure I can handle it. I said: Go sit down and I’ll come in position myself. Johnny Roselli went in and they had like, you can call it a booth, a table, there wasn’t anything before it or nothing, but he sat down in that. And I went (inaudible) right behind him. I positioned myself at the counter, ordered a cup of coffee; I was served and sat there. And then I sit there and I watch and saw a short stocky built man come in, walked over, Johnny got up, they shook hands, they sit down, they talked for a couple of minutes. I see him take like a half-size, like a legal envelope, but only half that size, out of his jacket and he laid it and pushed it across the table to Johnny Roselli. He got up, they shook hands, this man left, Johnny waited maybe two minutes. Johnny looked at me, I got up, I walked out the restaurant, made sure the area was clear, nobody outside in the parking lot, I went over and got in the car, started up and pulled up by the door, Johnny Roselli walked out, got in the car and we drove away.

Q- Did you ask him or did you find out in some way what was in the envelope?

A- On the way back to Dallas, Johnny and me was driving down the road, he didn’t open the envelope right away. We got almost up to, I think its Arlington, it’s about halfway there. I’m saying halfway, could be less one way or the other, it’s been a long time for me. But we were right about Arlington and Johnny opened the envelope, takes the stuff out and is looking at it. While he is looking at it, he noticed I am watching over while I am driving, and he’s got them little black wallets, like half-size, like identification wallets. And he opened them up and there is identification plates in them and there’s badges on them. At that point I didn’t know what the identification on it was. Because he is sitting there and looking at it, and I’m not going to lean over and I’m not going to say: Give me one of those, or anything like that. I wait, when he wants me to know, he will tell me. And then he opened up a piece of paper and he unfolded it. And there has been a lot of discrepancy over this part now. But Johnny Roselli said: They only made one change in the route.

Q- That was the motorcade?

A- It was a map of Dealey Plaza, the motorcade route. When he looked at it, for Dealey Plaza, he said they have only made one alter, one change in it. He said: That’s all. And I said: What’s that? And he said: They are going to go down Elm Street. They’re going to stop and make a detour, coming around this little street here. And he held it up and I kinda glanced over but I didn’t get a chance to look at it real good at that point. But I had already re-conned the area so I knew what he was talking about. And I know that everybody says: They had the motorcade in the newspaper, weeks and months ahead of time. Sure they did. But they didn’t have that one change. And if anybody wants to show somebody a newspaper clip, anybody check real close, because the original route they were not coming down Elm Street there. On that little detour, where they had the slowdown.

Q- Had you heard prior to that, when they got to Dealey Plaza that they would just continue straight on Main Street? Was that the idea?

A- The original plan was that we would be shooting at a fast moving target. And Nicoletti had no military experience and I already had advised him that he would have to shoot high and the target would be running away from him. That he would have to shoot above the head. And we were going for a headshot; I told him „it’s going to be hard for you to hit him from there.”

We’re getting a little bit ahead though. Before we got into this part…

Q- Yeah, let’s go back…

A- Because Chuck hadn’t got to Dallas that week. He only came in; I hadn’t seen him that morning. I had not seen Chuck in person until I went with Johnny Roselli to Fort Worth and come back. Johnny Roselli got out of the car and went upstairs, Charles Nicoletti came down. Mr. Nicoletti got into the car with me and we drove to Dealey Plaza.

Q- Okay, backup for just a second: How did Roselli get to Dallas?

A- At that point Roselli, he mentioned to me. Johnny Roselli. We were on the way to Fort Worth and I asked him: When did you get in? He said: I got in this morning. I got in early this morning. I haven’t been here but for a couple of hours. And I said: How did you get in? And he said he got lucky. He caught a ride on a plane that is sponsored by the Central Intelligence Agency, the CIA. I said: How the hell did you manage that one? He said: I got lucky. He had somebody there. I didn’t ask no more. He didn’t elaborate any more than that; I didn’t dig any deeper than that.

Q- He didn’t mention an abort team at that time?

A- Not at that point. So we got all that. Now then, when we got back I still don’t know that he was there on an abort mission. I have no knowledge of that at this point of the game. Johnny Roselli got out of the car, went back into the hotel. I waited maybe 5 or 7 minutes for Charles Nicoletti to come down. When he got down, Mr. Nicoletti got into the car with me and said: Let’s go! We took off and I say: Whereto? He says: Take me over by the Plaza. We went over, we parked, it’s drizzling rain, we get out and we’re walking around. This is the first time that Charles Nicoletti has even mentioned to me about an abort team. And he asked me.

Q- When was that?

A- Well, when we were walking around, Charles Nicoletti asked me, “ How do you feel about being backup?” I say, “ What do you mean backup?” He says, “How would you feel about being backup as a shooter for me?” I said, “What happened to Johnny? What’s with Johnny?” And he said, “Johnny is a little bit paranoid on this.” He says, “ the CIA called the hit off.” He said, “They don’t want the hit to go down” And I said, “ What do you say?” Chuck’s exact words were, “Fuck ’em. It’s going anyway.” And I told him, “What about Johnny?” Well, he says, “Johnny will be with me, but he is not gonna be a shooter. He doesn’t want to go against the orders. He’s been told, he flew in here specifically to abort this assassination.”

Q- Could you say he got cold feet?

A- No, when we were talking when I asked him about Johnny Roselli and I said, “How come Johnny isn’t going to be a shooter?” He said, “Well, he doesn’t want to go against the orders of the CIA.” What he wants, he wants to call it off. He flew in here as an abort team. They flew a plane in here especially with him on it, to tell us to call it off. And so I asked him at that point, I said: what do you say? He said, “Fuck ’em! It’s a go. We’re gonna do it” He says, “Jimmy, you know we can’t call this off. Only one man can stop it. He said: He’s here and if he wants us to stop it, he’ll notify me. I’m not going on somebody else’s word. He says: As far as it is right now, I have a go from the boss. We’re going!

Q- Now who was the one man who could have stopped it?

A- There was only one man. Charles Nicoletti did not say his name at that point. He just said „the boss“, I knew who he was referring to, he was referring to Sam Giancana.

Q- Who was he?

A- Sam Giancana, he was the number 2 man at that time. A lot of people is gonna tell you it was number 1. But it’s not true. Tony Accardo was still running things. He turned things over, he had Sam Giancana running all his operations and everything, but Tony Accardo was still the man and he was still calling the shots on whatever went down, whatever was done.

Q- The only thing Giancana said, had to have at least the okay of Accardo?

A- It had to be sanctioned and it had to come through Tony Accardo.

Q- We’re talking about the Chicago crime family?

A- We’re talking about only the Chicago area alone.

Q- I have a question right there. To your knowledge was there involvement of any other crime families? Marcello, Trafficante?

A- I knew of no other crime family being involved, I heard rumors, but do I know if anybody else was involved? No, I do not know if anybody else was involved. That would have been out of character for them to even notify me about that, or anybody else. That only stays up in the higher ranks of the family, or the people or the crime family; however you wish to describe it. And when things were handed out, like different departments, like different people get different things. Somebody might be into bookmaking, somebody handles the bookmaking, they passed that out to one party. This party, he distributed it amongst the people in the area, but everybody had a little what we call territory at that time. And somebody else might be in the loan sharking. And you might have somebody running (inaudible). You might have somebody that was running chop shops, which eventually I got into, which led to my federal prison sentence. But when it comes down to murder contracts, that was a whole new thing. Then we had somebody else that handled the liquor licenses. But everything was distributed amongst different people. And whatever moved, including the garbage at that time, even the garbage was controlled by the Outfit. And one party, and this can all be confirmed, I believe he is still alive, he is very old now, but his name was Zucchero, he had the garbage pick-up at that time there. And he was strictly informed that if he picked up another can of garbage, he would be in his next garbage truck going out to the dump. They took over his business and then he went into the junkyard business. And later on down the road, he became involved in a place out in Elk Grove Village, a very big place called Globe auto wreckers. His sons now run it.

Q- So once Mr. Nicoletti said, “We’re going anyway” what happened then? Start with about what time that was!

A- This would be approximately 10:30. This here would be approximately 10:30 am Johnny Roselli, excuse me, Mr. Nicoletti told me, he asked me to be the backup shooter. And that was the first inkling of anything that I would be involved in the assassination itself. Prior to that I was to only know the area and transport weapons.

Q- Was the weather clearing by that time?

A- It had started to clear at about 10:45. I believe, the best I can remember, I could be off a few minutes. I know it had been drizzling rain, it was cold, it was damp, the sun didn’t come out until after 11 AM I believe. But like I say again I could be off a few minutes on it. It’s a long time ago.

Q- Okay, the weather is clearing; it’s about 10:00 and let’s see, what happened?

A- I told Mr. Nicoletti: Yes, I would be honored to back you on it. Anything you ask, you know, I’ll do! And so, most of this had already been pre-arranged, beyond my knowledge, this Plaza had been selected, I did not select it, someone else had already selected it and he asked me where I thought would be the best place for him. And I told him the Dal-Tex building. Because the Dal-Tex building gave him a better shot with them taking a straight run-through at a high rate of speed. And evidently, I’m quite certain that they had all that pre-arranged on that part of it, because that place was his location, for him and Johnny, as far as that goes, because they already had made an arrangement to be admitted into the building.

Q- Why do you think he checked that with you then? Why did he ask you?

A- Oh, he didn’t check it, he just asked my opinion. He had always questioned me about different things. He used me like a sounding-board. Like maybe, you know, you’re in a business or in an office; you might ask one of the people around you, “What do you think about this?” You don’t really care what he thinks, you’re just asking for an opinion to see what he thinks. Maybe you overlooked something, or maybe somebody has a better idea than you do at this time of the game.

Q- Could it also be that you had military training and experience, when Nicoletti had…

A- Oh, that’s possible. He respected me for my knowledge of weapons, my knowledge of knowing terrain, because I had been in combat and the first thing when you walk into an area, to you it’s a landscape, to me its terrain. Because if I walk in and I walk into an ambush, I want to know where the low spots are, where the high spots are, where all the coverage is. I gotta know where I can get my rear end down so I don’t get it shot off. You’ve got to have a place to go to the ground in a hurry. You can not afford to stand around and be looking around and wondering: Gee, where can I go from here? If you do, you’re dead! You’ve got to think, that’s why you take all the training in the military. You are trained not to think, but to react.

Q- And Mr. Nicoletti had never been in the military or had he?

A- Not to my knowledge, he never served a day in the army. Or any military service as far as that goes.

Q- Where did you serve?

A- I was in the army, 82nd Airborne. I took my basic at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, I took my AIT at Fort Polk, they screwed up my orders and I went to Fort Seals and laid there for week, maybe ten days, from there I went to Fort Bragg to go airborne. I went into the service in January of 1959.

Q- Where were you assigned?

A- When I left, we left I think it was July, the tenth, we went from there to Laos. We were on an operation called operation called White Star. A handful of military advisors were going over to train people in Laos there, to do certain operations, at that time we really weren’t supposed to do any black bag stuff and things, we were just going in to train and equip people, and I found a lot of it pretty hilarious: We armed a lot of them and gave them weapons and they all took the stuff and they ran up north and we had to fight them later. But that’s how we basically had down all the way through the years in history.

Q- Did they call it counter insurgency at that time?

A- Oh yeah, they called it counter insurgency. What I found the most amazing of all was this place called Vientiane (inaudible), just outside of Vietnam. Not Vietnam, don’t get it confused, this is Laos, up in the central part of a place called the Plane of Jars, there is a large, well, a pretty good sized town up there, called Vientiane. On the runways, most of them were dirt; they had steel matting down on it for planes to land on. The Russians used the same runways that we did. We drank in the same taverns that the Russians drank in. We shopped at the same stores. We knew the Russians, they knew us. But we didn’t bother each other. They trained their people, we trained other people. It was just a close operation.

Q- Was there more than one of these White Star teams?

A- There were several White Star teams, but they all worked in individual groups and one group would never know what the other group was doing for a specific reason: Each group was on its own to a certain extent, but they did not know what the next group was doing in case they were captured, tortured, killed or whatever, they could give nobody up.

Q- Did you ever hear the name Colonel Fletcher Prouty?

A- Yes I did. Colonel Fletcher Prouty, he was the man in charge. Excellent man, excellent warrior, soldier. Good leader.

Q- You knew him?

A- I knew Colonel Fletcher Prouty personally, yes.

– Cut in tape –

Q- Nicoletti, he decides the Dal-Tex building is the place to go … and what made you choose the grassy knoll?

A- Mr. Nicoletti asked me: So if you back me up, Jimmy, what do you think would be the best spot for you? And I said: Well, the spot I like best is up on the grassy knoll behind that stockade fence. He says, “Why there?” I said, “I’ve got the railroad yard for cover.” I said, “With my clothes I can turn my jacket inside out, it’s plaid on the inside, it looks like railroad workers. Somebody out there wearing a flannel shirt, nobody is going to pay attention to me.” I said, “I can go over there, walk around a piece of (inaudible), walk up and down those boxcars, cross the railroad tracks, look at things, I’ll just be another worker, nobody will even look at me. And he said, Okay, what weapon are you going to use over there? And I told him … and I said: Well, what’s the situation? Chuck said: We’re going for a head shot now. I said: This I understand, I realize this. He said: You are not going to fire unless it becomes a necessity. He says: If I miss, then it’s gonna be up to you. He says: But you don’t fire, unless I miss. It’s gonna be your call at that point. So you got to be very alert on this. And I told him: Don’t worry about me. I got it, boss! And he said: What are you gonna use? I said: I’m gonna use the Fireball. And he looked at me and he says: Why? Why the Fireball? Now, the Fireball, for people who don’t know what a Fireball is, it’s like a cut down rifle. It’s actually basically this long. It’s a weapon that was well ahead of its time, this was one of the prototypes, the agency had gotten a hold of it, it had been manufactured by Remington. Now, a lot of people are gonna tell you that this particular weapon was not available at that time. But this weapon was available. It didn’t go on sale until a few years later. But this weapon had been manufactured as early as in 1961. We had a lot of trouble with the barrel blowing up when we used too big a round on it or something, overloads in it. A lot of problems with it, but they finally reinforced the barrel, we got it where it worked pretty good. And Chuck asked me, “Why the Fireball because you’ve only got one shot?” Because the Remington Fireball 2.22 is a single shot bolt action pistol and you can mount a scope on it. “Well, if I’m gonna wait until you are through,” I said, “I’m gonna get one shot anyway, so it doesn’t really matter because I’ll never get a chance for a second shot because I will wait till the last possible moment.” He said, “Okay, it’s your call.”

Q- Where did you get hold of a prototype weapon like the XP-100?

A- It was given to me by David Phillips. I had received this maybe a year prior or 8 months. A year prior to the assassination. The gun had been used twice before on assassinations, but nobody like a president or nothing. It was good for using if you want to get into a close place area or somewhere. Somebody might say why use a pistol? Well, anybody that knows their weapons, this particular piece is very accurate. Very accurate up to 100 yards. At 100 feet I’m talking about, we’re shooting now from the grassy knoll down to the highway, to the street there, we’re talking roughly 30, 35 yards. We’re only talking a 100 feet; this is like shooting fish in a barrel. And especially with a 3 power scope on it. But the weapon had been used before, you could put it in a briefcase, you could walk anywhere with it, nobody would pay any attention to it. The case I had set up, I had a little loading press inside for it, in case I had to manufacture anything, I had a little holder for all the special rounds that were in it. Everything was packed, foam rubber inside, the case was watertight, waterproof.

Q- What did the case look like?

A- The case was black. It was like an oversized briefcase basically speaking.

Q- Leather on the outside?

A- Leather on the outside. It had some little metal flaps on it, you know, for locking it up, you could lock the case. But I wasn’t concerned about locking it. But the thing is you could take it, you could go anywhere, you looked like a businessman with it. And I felt that was the best weapon to go with. And so. Mr. Nicoletti agreed with me on it and said: Okay, it’s your call, Jimmy. And that’s what we agreed on. So then, like I say, the Dal-Tex building, that had to have been previously arranged with them, because they already had made arrangements to get the people in there. So the Dal-Tex could not have been a last minute decision, as far as that goes. Like me saying: Okay, yeah, I think the Dal-Tex building. He just used me as sounding board.

Q- When you say, “had arranged to get you in the Dal-Tex,” I mean that was an office building anybody could walk in and out. You are talking about getting into a specific office?

A- Getting into a specific office, into a specific area somebody

Q- Make a statement

A- Okay. The reason they needed somebody there to get ‘m inside: Anybody can walk in and out. But the sole purpose of having a connection there, somebody that could get you into a place, into an office where you could open the door and you could have a window to shoot from. If you don’t have an opening, it don’t do you any good to get in that building. You’ve got to be able to get into somebody’s office, offices not being used, nobody around, otherwise the doors are just being locked, you have no way in.

Q- Do you happen to know which office that was?

A- No, I do not know which office it was.

Q- So what did you do?

A- What did I do? We walked around the plaza for a little bit. I took him back over, I dropped Mr. Nicoletti back off at the Dallas Cabana. And he got with Johnny, they therefore went back over there, I told them where the car would be pulled up alongside the building there and parked. He told me that they would come out of the building and they would get in that car. Now, I did not drop Charles Nicoletti or Johnny Roselli off at the Dal-Tex building. They got into the building, they were there on their own. I told them where the car would be, it’s his car, he knows this car. He knows what my job is, they will be in the car. He will be in front seat, Johnny will be in the backseat, I’ll get under the driver’s wheel, I’ll set my briefcase between the front and the backseat and we’ll drive away.

Q- Where did you drop them off?

A- When we pulled out from the side of the building, I made a right-hand turn onto Houston, I believe that would be going north, I’m not sure on my directions, but I made a right on Houston and I went up Houston to a major intersection, about four or five blocks, maybe six blocks, whatever it was. Then I took a left-hand turn. I went down close to the freeway there. There is a gas station there. I wanna say Texaco but it could have been something else, it might even have been a Mobil, I’m not sure now. But they had a car there. This is where they had told me to stop, this is where he told me he would be getting out at. You know: „Go down here, we’ve got a car there waiting for us“ And I go down there, they open the door and they get out. They start walking across the parking lot.

Q- Now this is before .?

A- This is after the assassination.

Q- After? Okay, I thought it was before, You said you didn’t let them off at the Dal-Tex building .

A- No, I took Charles Nicoletti back to the Dallas Cabana to meet with Johnny Roselli. Okay?

Q- After you were walking around Dealey Plaza?

A- After we walked around Dealey Plaza. There is still another hour to go probably before the assassination is gonna go down.

Q- Go back and make that statement: After we walked around for about an hour…

A- Okay. After we walked around Dealey Plaza I took Mr. Nicoletti back to the hotel, let him out of the vehicle, he went up and got with Johnny Roselli. I took the car back to where it was supposed to be, made arrangements . because he had asked me: What if you can’t get a parking space? I said: Don’t worry, I’ll have a parking space. If I have to, I steal a car and move it out of there. I said: We’ll be parked there, just look for the car. And at this point he told me: If we come out, I want the car close so I can get into it right away. Because he would be carrying a rifle underneath this topcoat, his jacket, his topcoat. And would come out of there and secure that in the trunk. He would put it in the trunk, he had a key to the trunk. He put that in the trunk, close the trunk, Johnny Roselli would get in the backseat, he would get in the passenger side, I would come walking up, I would get in at the driver’s side. I entered my attaché, briefcase, whatever you wanna call it, gun case in between the front and the backseat. I ‘d get in, start the car, we drive away. I’d make a right on Houston, I’d go down several blocks there, I forget the intersection, make a left-hand turn, go down by the gas station, just before you can get by that freeway there, and that would be the Stemmons freeway at that area, and they got out of the car. They had a car waiting there. Which car it was, I don’t know. I never watched them walk across the parking lot to it. As soon as they got out, the door closed, I drove away. I went back to Mesquite, Texas.

Q- Okay, again now, that was after all the shooting .

A- That was after all the shooting

Q – So with Nicoletti you had walked around, you had determined the shooting positions, you take him back to the Cabana and he went up and met with Roselli. Did you stay at the hotel or did you go back to the plaza?

A- After I took Charles Nicoletti back to the hotel, I went back to the plaza, secured the car, got my briefcase out with the gun, with the Fireball in it. I went into the railroad yard. I secured that over there, put it away, so nobody would see it. I reversed my jacket inside out, I had taken my hat, grey fedora, … and my jacket was a grey poplin , we had these car jackets back then, they were like waist length, not a short jacket, they kind of come down a little bit, no car jacket like . made out of a material that they no longer use, it was called poplin. You might even remember that material, the poplin material? Grey color, had a shine to it. That’s what the jacket was like that I was wearing. A pair of grey pants with it. And I reversed the jacket, it had the all-set plaids in it, kind-a-like checkers on the inside. When I turned it over it looked like one of the old grey flannel shirts we used to wear out, you know, when you’re doing work in the yard or something out there. And I walked around the railroad yard and was waiting for the time to pass. The time was coming on. And then I go to the crowd, I went over there by the fence, I got there a little bit, a few minutes early, I reached down and I had taken the scope off the weapon. And I look up, I look over the fence and I was looking for people (thru the scope). What I was looking for, was not to see who I knew, but I was looking for people that would be carrying a bulge, like a butt under the arm, I am looking for somebody with a weapon. This way I have an idea .

Q- Security people?

A- I’m looking for security people, cops, undercover, security, off-duty, whoever might be carrying a weapon. Bulge along their hip, behind their back, like under the arm in a shoulder holster. I’m looking for these little bulges, most people don’t pay no attention to that, but this is what I’m looking for. But then I was amazed when I recognized several people out of the past that were in Dealey Plaza. Did I go talk to them? No, but I recognized them and see them there.

Q- Who was that?

A- I remember Aldo Vera, remember seeing him there. Aah, a lot of people say Jack Ruby was never there, but he was there before the motorcade got there, I know that for a fact, and even though I never knew Jack Ruby, but I was as close to him as I was to you in the coffee shop but I never spoke to him, I was never introduced to him. Never said a word to Jack Ruby. But I was that close, I’m looking at the backside of him and I’m pretty sure that was him. Aah .. Diaz was there, I believe his name was Tony, Tony Diaz is what I knew him as, ..aah, Richard Cain, he was on scene, he was in the crowd, he had been there, he was leaving, he was like walking away, Felix Alderisio, I know he was there that day, where he went I have no idea. But there is several people that I saw.

Q- How about Frank Sturgis?

A- Frank Sturgis, he was there.

Q- How did you know Frank Sturgis?

A- I knew Frank Sturgis from the Bay of Pigs and from the SAO. I also knew Orlando Bosch. He was on scene. Orlando Bosch, I don’t know if you are familiar with his name or not, but he was also present. Ah . there was a few other faces I recognized, I just don’t remember the names for them, because it’s so long ago.

Q- How do you figure all those people were in Dealey Plaza?

A- You know, I couldn’t figure that one out when I was there myself, but it’s like anything else, it’s like everybody . they know something is going to happen. Maybe they know a building is going on fire or something. You know, you’ve got a building burning and it may collapse, everybody runs to see the fire, they should be going the other way. About the only time I have ever seen a lot of confusion was where people where trying to get away, it was a racetrack or some crowded place and somebody yelled „gun“, everybody broke and stampeded. We had a few people out of the racetrack that got hurt that way, they were out of Maywood Park, they got hurt in a stampede like that. But basically speaking, if somebody knows something is going to happen, they have a tendency to go see it. Most people are curious. You know when you ever drive down the highway and you see a wreck, you’re probably guilty of it. You slow the car down and look out the window. Everybody does it. So a lot of people had come there for that reason, probably because they had heard these rumors and stuff that he was going to be assassinated in Dallas. That was no secret. Even the National Security Agency knew that.

Q- What about Eugene Brading?

A- Eugene Braden? He was there that day. He was the … Eugene Braden was there for a specific reason: He had the contacts inside the Dal-Tex building. And he was the one that Charles Nicoletti and Johnny Roselli needed to get them into the private office, some way or another, I have no idea where that office was, I was never in the Dal-Tex building myself, I can’t even describe anything in there.

Q- So you probably stood behind that fence there for some little time?

A- Oh, only for a few …, I stayed away from the fence, I stayed basically in the yard, walk over to the fence, look over, stand a minute, then walk back away again. But I was observing the area.

Q- Were you a smoker at the time?

A- Oh yes, I did smoke.

Q- Were you smoking cigarettes that morning?

A- I had smoked that day. Careless! I probably stepped on several cigarette butts and left them there. Most of them Pall Mall.

Q- Was it muddy back there?

A- It was very muddy. Let me put it this way: A couple of times I even took my shoes, put them above up the little country ledger and scraped the mud off the bottom of them. I hated getting mud on them.

Q- What clothes was Frank Sturgis

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