Lethal Force and the Law

Orlando Sonza discusses his candidacy against Greg Landsman for Ohio's first Congressional Seat, followed by Sean Maloney, who discusses the legal dimensions of using lethal force to defend oneself.

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LETHAL FORCE AND THE LAW
The use of lethal force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort, but did you know that just touching a gun might be considered lethal force. “Stand Your Ground” means something different in every state, if you are a gun owner make sure you know the laws of your state. Did you know that you may be judged by a “reasonable man” standard? What does that mean, and does it mean something different in every state?

Own a gun or thinking about buying one? Join us for this class as Attorney and gun law expert Sean Maloney from Second Call Defense will break it all down for us by reviewing the basic concepts of lethal force, how they are interpreted by the legal system, and what it all means for you as a gun owner.   

Make sure you leave this class knowing the 5 Universal Concepts all gun owners must know!

TRANSCRIPT
So we'll get on to our first speaker for tonight. Orlando Sanza is proud to be an Ohioan, a second generation Filipino American. Orlando was raised in New Jersey and attended the United States Military Academy at West Point. While there, he met his wife, Jessica, a Mexican Filipino American. Fellow Academy classmate and Cincinnati native, Orlando graduated top 10 in his class at West Point, where he majored in political science and minored in systems and engineering.

Upon graduation, he and Jessica both commissioned as second lieutenants in the US Army. Orlando served on active duty as an infantry officer and a finance officer with the 3rd Infantry Division at Fort Stewart, Georgia. After leaving active duty, Orlando and Jessica moved to Cincinnati to raise a family.

While helping to raise their kids, Orlando obtained his master's degree in taxation from the United States. From, I'm sorry, from the University of Cincinnati and his law degree from Georgetown Law. Orlando is an Ohio CPA with experience working in Big Four accounting as a senior tax accountant. While in law school, he was a legal intern at the U.

S. Department of Justice, Criminal and Tax Divisions. Orlando currently works at the Hamilton County Prosecutor's Office. Orlando and Jessica currently live in Springfield Township with their four children. Please welcome the next first congressman, the first congressman of the first district, Orlando Sonsa.

Good evening, everybody. Thank you. Empower you for for hosting us this evening. It's great to see some familiar faces. Yeah. And, uh, some, some new faces in Dave and Karen. Congratulations, Karen. Your new book there, uh, like Betty said, I'm Orlando Sansa, uh, proud to call myself in Ohio. And this is this is my home.

Uh, now my wife, Karen. You can call it home much longer than I can, but as Betty explained, how do you have a Jersey boy meeting a Cincinnati girl, but you can't make it up as classmates at the United States Military Academy at West Point. Uh, so, you know, I, I just want to share with you just briefly for if we have not had the privilege of meeting, uh, who Orlando Sonsa is just much deeper, uh, not what he is.

Okay. Because at the end of the day, uh, if you live in the first district, but really any district, you're ultimately going to be showing up on election day to fill up a ballot, uh, and voting for a person and simply because they may have a letter attached to their name may not necessarily mean that they align with your values.

Uh, at the end of the day, we vote person. And, and so in a nutshell, this is who really Orlando Sonsa is. Bio, uh, aside first and foremost is I am a Christian. Uh, I am, I am unapologetic about that. I certainly don't impress that on anyone. But, uh, I live by 1 Peter 3, 15, my life first. It says, always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you.

To give a reason for the hope that is in you. But only do this with gentleness and respect. So I'm a Christian. Number two is that I'm a proud husband to an amazing wife. Jessica, I was telling, uh, Nicole back there, uh, from Clifton that Jessica is, uh, Cincinnati made because she knows the answer to the question.

Where did you go to school? It's not where to go. Where'd you go to college where you went to high school? Jessica is a product of public education system. Just like me. Although we can't say the same for how public education is now. Uh, but she is a proud graduate of Wynton woods school district. She's the first female graduate of when woods to go to West point.

Uh, so she not only serves her family. Day in and day out her husband and our four Children, but she has proudly served this country, and I'm so proud of her. And this is a team effort. She is right now, as we speak, in ballet rehearsal with our nine year old and two year old daughters. I can't do this without her, and I love her as my best friend and my partner.

11 years. No end in sight. Uh, third is that I'm a proud father of four kids all under the age of 10, two, four, six, and nine, two girls, two boys. Us Republicans call that a gender jackpot. Democrats a little confused, make whatever they want. Uh, but our kids are our lives. Uh, they're the reason why I'm running for this seat because.

If things do not change for our country, then the future that they will inherit is a broken economy that's going to leave them and their family bankrupt. It's going to be a less safe community that they're going to raise a family in, or attempt to raise a family in. They're going to inherit a continuously indoctrinating, not educating education system.

And an America that, on the global stage, will continue to be perceived as weaker and weaker and weaker instead of stronger and stronger and stronger. And so the reason why I'm running is because I've determined that the best way to serve my family right now is to serve my country as well. And my fellow Americans that reside right here in Southwest Ohio, they're my motivation.

So a Christian, a husband, father, very closely in tandem is that I'm a Patriot and I'm a conservative. Here's what it means for me to be a Patriot. Is that I have, I have the incredible blessing to say that I'm a product of a legal immigration system, a legal immigration system, the only way it should be the right way.

It should be the fair way. I was born in the Philippines, moved here when I was three years old, moved to America alongside my older sister, April and my parents, Orly and Susan to do what, to pursue the American dream. And they told me then at a young age, And throughout my early childhood, and even now in adulthood, that this, America, is the greatest country in the world.

And she is worth fighting for, and she is most certainly still worth dying for. And so when you're instilled with those values growing up as a kid, you are motivated by them. Motivated so much so, right, to, uh, commit. In high school, that there's only one place I want to go when I graduate, and that is at the United States Military Academy to not just be this thing called an army soldier, but I want to be an army leader.

I want to go to the premier leadership institution in the world that trains. and inspires future leaders of character in our U. S. Army. I want to do that. The first time I stepped foot on the plane at West Point, an hour away from where I lived in northern New Jersey, I knew this is the place I want to go.

Of course, best thing that happens to me as West Point at West Point is meeting Jessica, my wife, right? So that patriotism flows in her veins as well. Not just mine, a Patriot. Lastly, equally as important is that I'm a conservative and proud of it. And this is what conservatism means to me. It simply means that the fundamental rights and liberties that we share as Americans, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, that it is government's role to protect those rights.

Beyond that, you are exceeding the scope of our constitution. So I believe that government has enumerated rights, enumerated, listed, very specific rights, nothing else. If we exceed those bounds, we cease to be the America that our founding fathers envisioned. Also, it means that through your own hard work, not through someone else's hard work, your own hard work, your own work ethic, your own aspiration, your own decision to pursue a higher education, a good job, that is all done by your effort.

No one else's effort. And that by your labor, you get to chart your own path. Not by someone else's effort, That then is benefiting you. No, we have the ability in America to be yes. Individuals can proudly say that it's through, again, your own effort. That you can chart your own future. That's the beauty of America.

Only in America, right? Only in America. So those foundational principles that we have fundamental rights that are endowed by our creator and that government should protect those rights, not infringe upon them, not expand on them. And that we as individuals have a right to defend ourselves. We as individuals have a right and a duty and a responsibility, uh, to stand up for things that are true.

Like life and the value of it. So conservative principles, you know, growing up, I thought those were Asian American principles, Filipino American principles. Those are conservative American principles. And those are the principles and values that is going to correct the course of this country, because the alternative we have seen in the last four plus years is taking our country, changing the azimuth into a completely wrong direction.

That's going to destroy us from within, economically, security wise, education wise, national security wise, and value wise, as well. So that's, that's who Orlando Sanza is. A Christian, a husband, a father, a patriot, and a conservative. And that's the message that we've been delivering to the people right here in the First District.

And I will tell you, friends, it is a resounding message that people are accepting, with open arms, And are saying, yes, this is also what I believe in. And they may be people that have for the longest time adopted a completely different worldview, but a complete different set of principles. Longtime Democrats saying in neighborhoods that typically Republicans don't go into, but yet we have gone into our team has gone into my family and our four kids have got into deep into the urban core in Cincinnati and saying, Sanza, we voted for you for state Senate in 2022.

We're going to vote for you again because you're gonna fight for us with the values that we believe in as well. Love of God, love of family, love of country, a gun again, conservative principles. So we have a message. We certainly have a story to tell now to just give you an update on this race for those that are keyed in is that, uh, we pulled this race last week alongside, uh, the National Republican Campaign Committee in D.

C. And if we continue to deliver the message and continue to do what we are doing on the ground, polling says we are five points ahead. Ahead in this race

in a district that is indexed by the pundants as a democrat plus two percent leaning district. So we're five points ahead. We just need to continue to deliver the message. 41 percent of the african american vote is what we have according to this poll. Again, if we continue to deliver the message doing things that our conservative movement has struggled with in the past, how do you connect with other areas?

of the population. You just simply show up and you tell them what your values are and ask them. Do you share those values? Never mind titles and letters and names. Do you share the values that I share? Never mind color or gender. Do you share the values I share? So the poll is yes, certainly surprising in a good way, but not letting up.

We have a little over 45 days. And you can bet my wife and our four kids and our entire team and our, our great supporters from all around the district from Del High to Clifton to Mason and Springboro are going to continue to show up. We're going to continue to turn out and continue to be united in this effort to take back this seat.

So thank you so much for letting me just share with you about my story. More about the race. I certainly do want to open it up to questions if that's okay. That'd be okay. Um, anyone, please, anybody got any questions? Please state your name and your questions. The mic, please. My name's Carl, and I was wondering what your opinion is on this issue that's going to be on the ballot pertaining to redistricting.

There's, they're talking about having 5 Republicans on the committee, 5 Democrats, and 5 Independents. The thing that concerns me is my neighbors are all, are Independents, but they're really closet Democrats. So, I could see a conflict of interest there. Thank you for the question. Um, here's the thing about issue one.

It claims to be an anti gerrymandering initiative, but if you actually read the language that's actually right now being litigated, uh, it is a gerrymandering initiative. And here's why. You talk about a conflict of interest. You should be asking the question why the majority of the resources, the majority of the dollars that are supporting, uh, this ballot initiative is not just coming from out of state.

It's coming from out of country. If there is such an interest in Ohio for changing the way, and I will be the first to admit that the way that we draw districts can be better, most certainly. But the way to change it is not this, because that is the definition of outside special interest groups that are trying to impact the way that we do business here as Ohioans.

Okay, so that's number one. That should, that should be a red flag for me for any initiative. Whether it was issue one last November, right? We knew that that was a push for special interest. from outside country outside of state. But the same for this as well. But substantively, when it comes to this redistricting initiative, because at the end of the day, trying to take out, you can never take out politics from redistricting.

I mean, by definition, that's what redistricting seek to do seeks to create, uh, lines that then elect Politicians and our elected officials. It is very hard to draw districts, uh, that comply with. laws, let alone our laws here in Ohio and leaving it up to legislators. So what do the legislators do? They hire consultants.

They are consultants that have the computer software that can then draw those lines. Because at the end of the day, it's it comes to statistics and numbers and taking census data, compiling that, analyzing that and then drawing lines. The question is who who is going to be these consultants? When there's already a, a small pool of consultants already that are keyed in on redistricting itself, uh, and it was consultants that battled with each other, uh, in just in 2022 with our redistricting mess, that there's still going to be involved.

So it still doesn't solve the underlying issue of who the actual map drawers will be. Uh, so from that standpoint, if you're going to solve our redistricting issues that we have in the state. Uh, well, why don't we first actually think through where the funding sources are going to be from that initiative and what their, uh, intent is for funding.

And then number 2 is how we're actually going to draw these maps now, from what I've seen now, I haven't done the deep dive, but just from what I'm hearing in that, if this passes. What districts will actually look like you will have districts that take, uh, cities and completely stretch them out to also include districts that are far and wide in slivers around the state.

Uh, how in the world does that achieve compactness? That just that that is a judicial mandate by our Ohio Supreme Court. That's just one example. It doesn't achieve that. And our Ohio Supreme Court said districts must be as compact as they can be. But if you're taking not just one district, but multiple districts, and making them look like a salamander or a gerrymander, then it begs the question, is this actually achieving our judicial intent, our legal intent in the state?

So those are my, those are my rough thoughts. But I'm not the expert on the issue. I believe someone else will be speaking on that issue. Yes. Okay. Do we have any other questions? There was this, uh, I guess issue one where before the abortion thing where they said, Oh, uh, they're only having this issue one to stop.

Uh, to make it harder to change the Ohio constitution in order to, uh, stop the abortion rights to get on our constitution. And so we lost that issue one, and then they did the abortion thing. Is there a way to get that limiting the, uh, Changing of Ohio Constitution by a higher percentage. Sure. So, to change our Ohio Constitution requires a series of steps.

The first step is to get signatures, uh, sufficient enough. I think it's for 400, 000, uh, sufficient enough to bring it before the ballot board and put it on the next ballot for a constitutional amendment. We can do that at any time as Ohioans. We reserve that right under our Constitution to be the ones that wield the power to change our Ohio Constitution.

Uh, but again, that's just one part. The second part is how do you get the message out? For that initiative again. How do you even have the sufficient and enough support initially to get those signatures? Well, there has to be a system in place, a team in place and resources in place to get that message out.

So it's not that we can't do it again, but it's is there the will to do it and the resources to do it now? I will argue that Uh, if we stuck to the message in that August ballot initiative, that it's just crazy to think that our, uh, U. S. Constitution has been amended a fifth of the amount of amendments that our Ohio Constitution has been amended.

Our Ohio Constitution has been amended over 140 times. You know, there should be a much greater threshold than the 50 percent plus one that we have right now. So will we see that again? Perhaps. I hope so. But I don't think that we're going to see it. Most certainly not in this November. But when we see it next year, it comes down to will, resources, and infrastructure to get that message out.

I just want our audience to know that we tried to put together a debate with Orlando and Lansman. And uh, Lansman didn't even have the courtesy to say I'm busy or whatever it was, why he didn't answer. But that's okay, because Orlando went to Lansman's turf on Monday night and he won the debate. That's right.

Thank you, Betty.

Good note, good note to end on and and that just speaks to again the contrast, right? Is that we are not afraid to go anywhere to deliver a message Even if it's in the middle of Amberley village at the Jewish Center against a Jewish American opponent that we don't certainly Cast aspersions on but we know and they know that that was home turf for him but Let's just say this is that I know that empower you would have been as gracious and accommodating and kind as the Jewish center was for us.

My question is to my opponent. Why won't you reciprocate the same? Deliver your message. Don't be afraid to try to defend your record in these last 20 months. He certainly didn't do that on Monday, and I'm sure he would have failed to do that here, but at least show up, uh, answer questions, and, uh, if you're afraid that there's going to be more Republicans in a room than you've ever experienced before, well, maybe you shouldn't be the U.

S. Congressman for the 1st District, but thank you, Betty. Thank you, thank you, Thank you for coming. I think he's afraid of Orlando.

Okay, we'll get on to our next speaker. Sean Maloney is a licensed Ohio attorney with a firearms legal practice emphasizing gun rights. He practices in all areas of firearm related law in both state and federal courts, including Second Amendment rights, criminal defense related to federal and state firearms charges, federal and state restoration of gun rights, Rights, National Firearm Act issues, federal firearms license representation, state lawsuits to enforce violations of Ohio's preemption laws, and federal background form 4473 NICS appeals.

Sean is a criminal and civil firearms consultant and has appeared as an expert witness in a variety of civil lawsuits related to firearms. He is also a national speaker on topics related to the Second Amendment, self defense, lethal force, and concealed carry. Sean co founded Second Call Defense. Um, website is second call defense dot org, a national organization that provides complete legal protection for armed self defense with thousands of members in all 50 states.

Please welcome Sean Maloney. Can

everybody hear me? We have enough sound.

I'm sure you'll take care of it in the back. I want to apologize ahead of time. Uh, I'm suffering from vertigo for the first time in my life. So you're all spinning a little bit, but I'll get through it. So don't panic if I should collapse and fall, just make sure I haven't hit my head real hard, but I'll be all right now as an attorney, I have to kind of give you this disclaimer.

Uh, I'm ethically bound to do it. My name is Sean Malone. I'm an attorney, but not your attorney. If you need specific advice, please contact an attorney located in your jurisdiction. The information provided during this seminar is for informational entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal advice.

So if you guys need anything outside here, feel free to call me. I have cards on the back all the way out, uh, and I'll be happy to talk with anybody at any time also. Now, there's three websites I'd like you to try to remember. Type into your phone, uh, One is secondcalldefense. org, which has a wealth of information on it for gun owners, uh, legal and otherwise.

And then, of course, Ohioattorneygeneral. gov. I'm assuming that we have a large percentage of gun owners. and concealed carry holders in the room. They update the Ohio handbook for concealed carry on a regular basis. And I encourage everybody to take a look at that monthly because there's changes. We change the laws, the gun laws in the state of Ohio, uh, on a regular basis.

I'm legislative director for Buckeye Firearms Association. And in my spare time, that's probably all I do. And then this one is an important website for people who do carry. And travel from state to state under reciprocity or just want to know what other states gun laws are, especially the ones that touch us, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Indiana.

Uh, that's handgunlaw. us. That's a great website and I always pass that one out because All the police departments use that in their cruisers. If they have any questions about somebody from out of state or any questions about gun laws, they always use handgunlaw. us. It's a great one. I know the individuals that run that.

They're a group of attorneys and it's always kept up to date. I'll have some related information and definitions that, uh, we'll talk about in the beginning so we're all on the same page. We'll talk about what is lethal force. Um, and I'm not going to ask. Who carries a gun, who has a gun, who owns a gun. I always say that's none of my business.

I understand your business, but, uh, for some reason, my mother called me today and want to know how many gun owners are in America. Uh, I, I sensed that she was online and she's in a, a Facebook feud with somebody. That's just what I think. And I said, 400 million. So there's more than one firearm for every man, woman, and child in the United States.

And there's probably over at one time, there was over 130 million households with guns, and I'm sure that's increased. Uh, so gun owners certainly aren't a minority. So lethal or deadly force is a force likely or intended to cause death or great harm. So when we think about using deadly force, uh, we have to think about the fact that, uh, it's likely, not necessarily likely or intended to cause death, but certainly death may be a result, and the fact that you used lethal force or someone used lethal force against you, and you didn't die, doesn't really make a difference either.

The key words that you're going to hear over and over from me is I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm. Uh, I don't have to know that the baseball bat that crashes against my shoulder or crashes against my forearm is, is going to cause me great bodily injury or harm. The fact that it may and has the ability to, uh, is really all I need to use lethal force.

Certainly it's reasonable to think that, uh, uh, Swing a baseball bat or a frozen bag of squirrels, uh, striking me in the head, uh, could cause death or serious bodily injury. And I always use the example of frozen bag of squirrels because, uh, in San Francisco, and, uh, actually in Nancy Pelosi's district, a gentleman used a frozen bag of squirrels to kill his neighbor.

They were in an argument over a fence. There's been more killings over fence disputes than you can imagine. My first capital murder case was a dispute over a farm fence. Well, this gentleman and his neighbor were fighting over a fence, and apparently he was a squirrel hunter and had a frozen bag of squirrels in the freezer.

So he brought that out and used it as a weapon. And I always say, look around. Anything can be a weapon. It could be a firearm, could be a pen, a pencil, a frozen bag of squirrels, a car, a baseball bat, anything. So when you think about that and when you're preparing for things and you think about lethal force, anything potentially can be a weapon against you.

And I always tell people, especially in today's day and age, uh, you need to pay attention to your surroundings and, uh, not look at your telephone, your cell phone and text as you're walking down the street, because that may be your biggest mistake.

Burden of proof or self defense law, It was changed in 2019, and I know 2019 seems like a long time ago, but to me it just happened. As I was going over this, I gave this same seminar in 2021, and so I was going over the seminar, and it's unbelievable the amount of laws that have changed in that short amount of time.

They've all been good, they've all been federalist laws, they've all expanded our right to keep and bear arms, and they've all protected us as citizens, uh, uh, Uh, to do the same. So it was changed in 2019 for self defense cases. It was changed. It used to be now keep in mind the good guys and good girls with a gun.

Who used a gun in self defense? What does the law call you? The defendant. Someone kicks your front door open, wielding a knife, sprints up your stairs, you're forced to use lethal force to protect your family, and you're the defendant, and they're the victim. You have to be something, so that's the way it starts off, and I always tell people that, because some people are surprised when they hear that.

Certainly I was. I was, uh, I'm an NRA instructor also, and a criminal defense attorney, and I was reading the Attorney General handbook, and they kept saying defendant, defendant, defendant, while I'm used to saying defendant, but then one time I said, wait a minute, I'm the defendant? That's ridiculous. So, know that and get over that.

So, if there's evidence now, and we change that, and That was one of the first things I wanted to do because we were the only state in the United States that had that left on our, on our books. We were the last state to change the burden of proof for the affirmative defense of self defense. I think West Virginia may have been the last state to do it before us, somebody nearby, but we were the last ones and the state representatives and senators didn't believe me.

I was talking to senators and representatives that were prosecutors and they didn't believe me. And I'm saying, boy, I'd like to open up your books and see what we can reverse, but, you know, that's the case. So now, if there's evidence that tends to support that a person accused of a crime used force and self defense, the burden shifts to the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they didn't.

So if there's any evidence that tends to support, now, I was in a meeting. Uh, when the senator came up with a language that tends to support and I cringed because to me that's what's tends to support me and that's a lawsuit and there has been several, uh, and, uh, lawsuits on that, but they kind of cleared that out.

So keep in mind when you have an affirmative defense of self defense, essentially, you're saying. I did it, but it's like it's like my kids excuse my kids defense. Yeah, dad. I did it, but so it's I did it, but and we'll talk about more about that later. So, what happens is the burden shifts to the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused did not use force and self defense or defense of another or defense of one's residence.

And the statutory reference is 2901. 05, it sets forth the burden shift. If there is evidence that tends to support that a person used self defense, then the jury will get a self defense jury instruction. The biggest problem now we have in Ohio law, and there's several, uh, senators and representatives are trying to change this, is that if I bring a client to trial and I'm pleading self defense, for whatever reason, I've admitted everything, and I've admitted that Uh, that he pulled the trigger or that used the baseball bat or whatever they did in lethal force to protect themselves.

And yet, the judge feels that there's not enough evidence that tends to support, the jury never hears about self defense. So I just essentially Admitted everything that my client did to prove the crime and he's not going to get a self defense, uh, During instruction that's being changed and several other states have the law You have a pre trial hearing early on to determine just the issue of self defense and then as you move forward You know what you're litigating for your client.

So that's something that's kind of ongoing kind of inside baseball now this is from the uh The Attorney General Yost's office, in Ohio, deadly force can be used only to prevent serious bodily harm or death. Deadly force can never be used to protect property only. Depending upon the specific facts and circumstances of the situation, the use of deadly force may lead to criminal charges and or civil liability.

And that's in the latest, uh, Ohio concealed carry law handbook. And that's important to know. Uh, in the state of Ohio and in most states, there's, there's some, uh, exceptions, but in most states, you can never use lethal force or deadly force or really physical force in protection of property. A long, long time ago in a cat, in the case of cat go versus Briley, the United States Supreme court decided that human life is more valuable than any piece of property.

And that came about when, uh, Mr. Briley. Uh, had a old farmhouse, he was born in that farmhouse, built another house beside it, and people kept breaking into that farmhouse. So he got sick and tired of people breaking into his old homestead and taking whatever was in there. So he decided to set up a spring loaded shotgun in the front door, so whoever, you know, It's Johnny, I'm home, and a shotgun went off, and that's when that case was decided.

So always remember that human life is always more valuable than any piece of personal property. And that's that case that's set forth that, and that's where this comes from under Ohio law and most other states. Deadly force can be used only to prevent serious bodily harm. That is why your response to the question, Why did you use a firearm?

Why did you shoot? Why did you strangle? Why did you punch her, him, the teenager? Why did you kill the teenager? One, one answer. I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm. That's the only reason we as law abiding citizens use lethal force. Why? Cause I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm.

I used to say, practice saying over and over and over again, because I'll talk about the psychological and physiological, uh, uh, body changes to a threatening encounter and how, if you don't memorize that and you don't know how to make a nine one call, God knows what's going to come out of your mouth and we'll talk about the reason for that shortly.

Some people, and I, I, as an entering instructor, I taught concealed carry for years, self defense in the home and home firearm safety. I always wonder how many people go home, put their gun in the nightstand and never touched it again. Or how many people have left the class, but never really think. When are they allowed to use a firearm in self defense?

I can tell you as law abiding citizens in this room, and good girls and good guys with guns, you wait too long. Because we're good people. And so we always wait too long. But you need to think about when can you use a firearm in self defense? And essentially that comes down when you're subjectively, it doesn't matter what I think, or what your neighbor thinks, but when are you personally in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm?

Then your use of lethal force is justified. But how do we convey that To the jury, certainly we can say, well, subjectively, I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm. And that's what we're going to talk about tonight. What comes next? How do we prove to the jury that we're a reasonable person and we properly and reasonably use a firearm of self defense?

You know, I've said, I promise you, if you don't memorize and practice, and we'll go over the 9 1 1 call. You'll have no idea what you're saying. I can give you examples, and I will. I've had clients say some amazingly stupid things in the past. They have no recollection of saying it. How's a sign to a 911 operator when a husband and wife are unlocking their front door?

Husband and wife are attacked, husband is knocked to the ground, being beat, grabs a firearm, fires a warning shot, which is the last thing you want to do. Finally fires another shot, hits the attacker in the leg. Uh, so what do a good husband and wife do? They call 911, and what's the wife do? She applies direct pressure to the guy that tried to kill him.

So the husband's putting his gun away, and um, you hear him screaming in the background, You son of a bitch! You're bleeding like a stuck pig! I should have shot you again! He has no recollection of saying that. The police did the investigation and they, they cleared him. I said, there's no problem. Two days later, the 911 operator was listening to the tape, gave it to the prosecutor.

Prosecutor indicted him for murder. I was a consultant that case three years later, a bankruptcy, a foreclosure on their house and a divorce later, you know, he was finally acquitted, but that was mostly because he had the wrong attorney, but people didn't understand. And it's important to understand the psychological aspects.

of a threatening encounter and what's going to happen, and that's why I throw this in here, although it's not legally related, it's more medical, but I'm going to want you to know.

I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm. Why do I say you have no idea what would come out of your mouth after a self defense situation? Because of our natural physical and psychological and voluntary responses to a threatening encounter. We have no control over what we say. We have no control over what we're going to hear.

We have no control over what Over the tunnel vision, we have no control over what we remember. Almost everything we've been involved in, a fight for our lives, can come into evidence. Everything can come into evidence under one of the seven exceptions to the hearsay rule. The one that's going to kill us and get us is always the excited utterance.

Oh my god, I shot him, I killed him. Well, it's said directly, immediately after the incident. And so the court thinks, well, you didn't have time to Have a plan to be deceitful. So it's an excited on earth. We're gonna let it come in. But now medically, we know that anything that we say after we're involved in threatening encounter probably isn't true.

Not because we're not lying, but because of what's just happened. We have no idea what happens. And that's what we're going to go over. So really, It's an exception to the rule against hearsay, the excited utterance, but with medical science, the way it is today, it shouldn't be an exception based on what we're going to talk about.

Uh, and the excited utterance is created by common law based on hundreds and hundreds of years of doctrine. Uh, stuff from the 16 and 1700s in England is where most of the common law comes. Um, But so everything we're going to say immediately after the incident is mostly untrue again. Like I said, not because we're lying, but because of what's going to happen.

So what happens even before we consciously recognize. that we're in trouble or that we're in danger? Well, unconsciously, unconsciously and involuntarily, norepinephrine is dumped into our body. It's a neurotransmitter released from the sympathetic nervous system in response to stress hormone, uh, referred to as stress hormones.

Sympathic nervous system triggers a response that is commonly referred to as our fight or flight response. We're gonna, we're either gonna fight, stand up, or we're gonna run and gonna take off. That's all that energy. When we are faced with a situation that is potentially dangerous, we need to decide either to stay and face whatever we find intimidating or scary, or to turn and run away as fast as we can.

Both options require our body to work faster and better, this is where the norepinephrine comes in. Did you know that in order to make your body work more efficiently, now this is all what our body does without us even trying. It causes several changes in our body function. These include the following.

An increase in the amount of oxygen going to our brain. Helps us think. Makes things clearer. Helps us move quicker. An increase in our heart rate. This pumps more blood around our body, helping our muscles work faster and more efficiently. An increase in glucose, or sugar. This additional sugar gives our muscles something to feed on, which helps them work better and faster.

It increases our breathing rate. When we breathe faster, we're delivering more oxygen to the body and the brain. This helps our entire body work better. The shutting down of the metabolic process, shutting down processes like digestion, growth, it all allows blood and energy that would normally go to these functions in the human body to go to the muscles in the brain.

Adrenaline rushes and an extremely intense chemical change takes place. Adrenaline is a natural hormone that is produced by the body and secreted through the body when you undergo some type of traumatic experience. For instance, if you're attacked by a dog or in a car accident, or you get in a fight.

You notice the energetic feeling that gives you the power and strength to either escape or attack. When your adrenaline gets out of your system, you start shaking. You, someone's been in a car accident and they have, they're busted up. You know, they have a broken arm, broken leg, but they feel no pain. It kills the pain transmitter.

Uh, adrenaline does a lot of those things. It gives you a notable increase in your strength. People who go underneath, go under that adrenaline rush during a major emergency have known to do some crazy things. They lifted cars off children, you know, they've jumped, they did some amazing things, and that's all from the adrenaline.

Uh, No feelings of pain and adrenaline rush can also be used to protect your body from pain. Heightened senses of awareness from your vision to your touch to your senses will all be dramatically heightened when you undergo adrenaline rush. Sudden boost of energy, increased breathing, all of what I just described causes distorted perceptions of time or slow motion and distorts distances, causes tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, just to name some.

Now tunnel vision, I'm being attacked. The only thing I can see is the gun. The only thing I can see is a knife. I can't see the other 12 people. I don't know that I shot 13 times. The police says, how many times you shoot? I say twice. And it's not because I'm, I'm being facetious or lying. I have no recollection.

And I probably never will have a recollection. Or if it does happen, it's going to happen sometime later. How many people in here know that, uh, when the police are involved in a, in a shooting that their union and their attorneys don't let them make any statements for at least 48 hours? We're expected to talk immediately under that same situation, and we'll go over why we don't, and why it's really the only time I can really tell somebody to shut up.

So if I tell you to shut up, it's a good thing. Typically after your body releases the adrenaline, only when you need it. However, if you're suffering from the extreme adrenaline rush and you have to talk, I always tell people to practice four square breathing. When you breathe, and it's good too if you're getting your blood pressure taken, four breaths, four second breath in, hold it for four seconds, out for four seconds.

Hold it. And for four seconds, if you do that for about 30 seconds to a minute, you will be relaxed and it will calm you down. Uh, I do it in a lot of different occasions and I, and I first learned that in the concealed carry class. All of these conditions, which are great if you're in a fight, if you're, if you're turning into a K, a K person and you're fighting for your life are great.

But all these same conditions make it impossible to immediately recall what just occurred. So we say nothing and we just shut up. Don't talk until your attorney can do the talking for you is what I always say. Only a fool Um, uh, would make statements without talking to their attorney first. Now, I just highlight this out, it's kind of really, really deep.

In 2013, the United States Supreme Court in a ruling, Salinas v. Texas, said, If the police are asking us questions, and we haven't been read Miranda, so these just, At doing an investigation, asking questions, and we just decide not to say anything, we shut up, ask us questions, do you know who had the gun, you say nothing.

Before Miranda, your silence can actually be used against you in court. Which I was stunned when the Supreme Court said this. After Miranda, and you read your rights, of course. Your silence can't be used against you. But keep in mind that if they're asking, the police are asking you questions after a shooting, kindly and politely say, I'm not going to say anything.

I'm going to invoke my, my fourth amendment rights until I have a chance to talk to my attorney or I'm invoking my right to remain silent. And that's enough. And that'll protect you against that. I always saw it in there. Hopefully it helps. Uh, I think it's important to know, and remember all those, all those effects of the adrenaline and the impact of the, um, uh, threatening encounter.

You can't prevent those from happening. Your body is going to do that. God created our bodies that way. And it happens to protect us, to help us, to make us better, faster, stronger. We can't stop it. Now we can train to be able to react and act properly when those are happening. Um, but we can't stop from happening.

The increased heart rate, the accelerated breathing, the blood vessels being constricted parts of the body being, uh, Restricted auditory exclusions. Has anybody been in a car accident or can remember as a kid falling out of a tree like me, I can remember auditory exclusion. I can remember everything echoing and sound like it's a long ways away.

I was in a car accident where we rolled over the car and it was in slow motion. That's again, part of something you'll experience during a threatening encounter. Your body has all these reactions that allows you to act quickly and act properly. So it's something that I've had as a kid. Falling out of trees a lot is probably a lot of the reason why I am the way I am, but at least, at least my parents will tell you that.

So some or all of these make it impossible for you to recall just what occurred. So a police officer coming up to you and saying, Hey, what just happened? How many times did you shoot? Where did he come from? What do you say to you? Where's the gun? You have no idea. You have no recollection. You have no memory.

And so what happens is you give a statement. None of the statement is remotely true. Two or three days later, you meet with your attorney. Your memory is starting to come back. Sometimes it takes a few days, a few weeks, a few months. Sometimes it never comes back because of the trauma. And all of a sudden you have a totally different statement.

And then the prosecutor is going to say, well, what are you going to believe, the statement he gave right after the incident, or the statement three days later after he spoke to his attorney? Well, the one he believed is the statement three days later, because all the effects of a threatening encounter are over with, and you start to remember, and you can start to think about what happened.

That's why the best advice you can get is don't talk to, politely and kindly tell them. You have nothing to say until you have the opportunity to collect your thoughts and speak to an attorney. And also, I'd like to point out, if anybody in here is on beta blockers, they impact your sympathetic nervous system.

They make you react slower. And that's something that you do, and that keeps her blood pressure lower. My doctor didn't know that until I told her. So do you want to be in a fight for your life with your sympathetic nervous system impaired? Uh, I didn't want to, so eventually I took myself off of them. Now, I told you, shut up, don't talk to the police, make sure you talk to an attorney.

So how do we call 911 to summon help? When I just told you all that because make no mistake about it, folks, your first contact with police is a 911 call that 911 call is recorded all the time that 911 operator will be in court to testify against you, or maybe on behalf of you, but make no mistake about it.

The investigation begins during the 911 call and I have a seminar on how to handle the 911 call. I have 10 to 15 live 911 calls. Someone make you laugh, someone make you cry. Some are terrifying. The questions that you're being asked when there's a bad man in your house, uh, or your wife is hiding from the bad guy, hang up.

Call 9 1 1, tell them that there's an intruder, and hang up and defend yourself, and we'll talk about that. So how do you dial 9 1 1, summon help, and the attorney advises you to shut up? Based on everything we know from the impact of a threatening encounter and the psychological and physical impacts of that, how do we, how do we function properly?

Well, the first thing we do is we answer no questions that the 911 operators can ask. And they're going to ask a lot of questions, but that's not the purpose of us calling 911. We have one purpose of calling 911 and that's to summon help. Period. It's over. Hang up. You're done. Hopefully you're calling me, or another attorney, or you have a service like second call defense.

That's why we're second call. As soon as you call 911, your second call is to us, there's an attorney on the line, and we take care of everything from there. So, if I call 911, My call is probably going to sound something like this. My name is Sean Maloney. I live at 223 South second Avenue, Hamilton, Ohio. I was inferred for my life.

There's been a shooting. Send the ambulance police. I'm six two. I'm bald. I'll be in a white t shirt and boxer shorts standing in my. Uh, driveway waiting for you. Now that's one way it would go, and of course I'm not going to have my gun. Because think about it, the police are now rushing to a shooting, they're amped up with the same adrenaline that I have, so all these people running around with firearms and me standing with a gun in my hand isn't a good thing to do.

So if, if, if at all possible, you put that gun away. Now it can also be the threat's gone, the threat's been stopped, my wife is upstairs holding, holding the, uh, the attacker down with a gun, or to be. The attacker is still in my house, in the front of the room, and they're going to start asking questions.

Well, you know what? You don't have time to answer questions because you need 100 percent of your focus on protecting yourself. And I encourage you, I'll talk to them and get that seminar here. I mean, a lot of it is very emotional to hear the stupid questions that 911 operators are asking. How'd they get there?

What color was the car they're driving? And the woman said, I don't know. He's in my house trying to kill me and my children. Or it could be, I'm being attacked. I don't know. There's an intruder in my house. Send the police immediately. I live at 223 South 2nd Avenue. In Hamilton, Ohio. Actually, my childhood home was 223 South 2nd Avenue in Quarry, PA.

So that's why I always use that so I don't forget. I always try to give a shout out to Quarry, Pennsylvania every time I can, even though I've lived here longer than I've lived there. Now, when you hang up, I can guarantee something's gonna happen. They're going to call back. Don't answer it because if you're hopefully you're talking to an attorney on the phone after you've used lethal force and self defense, or if somebody's still in your house, you don't have time to be on the phone.

You need 100 percent of your focus to be on the threat that's currently in front of you. So the limited information we give is simply. Summon help. And that's all we have to do. That's all we're required to do. And really by law, we're not even required to call 9 1 1. I've had, I've talked with some attorneys that said, well, you know what, I don't want my client to make that 9 1 1 call.

I want his wife or her husband. I want somebody else to make it. I don't, I want you to say I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury and you know, I I, and there's been a shooting sending Ann Wilson police 'cause they're gonna have a chance to, to take statements as it is. But you wanna make sure you're the first one out there calling for help and.

Also a good trick that 911 operators do, and police do, is that sometimes you get put on hold. You won't believe how many times a 911 operator puts you on hold. Either they're too busy, or sometimes they put you on hold to find out what they can find out. Just think about it. When they put you on hold, people think that you can't hear.

Well, guess what? You're still being recorded. So the whole time you're on hold, it's recording your entire conversation, all the background noise, and what's going on. That's always a little trick I always tell people. So, you know, you're not alone. And trust me, in today's day and age, you're always being watched.

You're always being listened to. These were the bane of our society, folks. Let me tell you something. We have no privacy whatsoever.

If you remember, I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm, and to act accordingly, you should never be found guilty in a self defense shooting. And now this holds especially true if you have competent legal representation. Immediately after the 911 call, critically before you make any statements to the police, and yes, I include 911 operators in statements to the police.

That's why they're going to ask you every question. Who was it? Do you know him? What did you do? Where did they come from? Where are they driving? You have nothing to say. Probably you don't know, you can't answer those questions like what I talked about before. I always advise people to have an attorney you can call immediately after you're forced to use lethal force.

And that's why I created a site called offense probably in 2010. I got sick and tired of my clients not having the ability to bond themselves out. I've walked door to door with wives at 1 a. m. with their three little kids to get 10, 000 because the 19 year old husband was charged with felonious assault for brandishing a firearm and he legally brandished, but he was overcharged on a Friday night and he called me in tears and I knew Monday morning after we spent the weekend in Butler County Jail, he would never be the same.

And after after I went door to door to piggy banks to ATM machines, got the 10, 000 cash for the 100, 000 bond. I said, there's got to be a better way. And that's why I created something called offense. It was a better way. And it gives you legal protection immediately. Trust me. My wife will probably tell you I've spent more time in jail than my clients collectively, because I'm in there preparing them for arraignment hearings trial, because they can't afford bond or bail.

I'd much rather be in my office, but, uh, they know me well about the county general and, uh, Hamilton County also. So I created a second called offense to protect law abiding gun owners. And there's plenty of organizations like that out there. And I always say, okay, we're forced to use the firearm as self defense.

Who are you going to call? You've been arrested, who's going to call your family? Who's going to arrange bail? Who's going to find you an attorney? Who's going to find you an attorney in Florida when you're on vacation and you use a firearm as self defense? I'm sure we all know who we're going to hire at home, or you have a general idea, or somebody you can call and say, Hey, I need an attorney, but who are you going to call in Yellowstone National Park?

If you're forced to use a firearm for self defense. That's why you need somebody to call. If you don't have an attorney on speed dial, I always tell people, and you carry a gun for self defense, you're a fool. Because there will be an investigation, you will be interrogated, you will be held, and being detained, and you may be arrested.

And there's a lot that goes into making sure that's the smooth and easy as a process as possible. And again, uh, SecondCallDefense. org. I have white papers, things I've written, things that you can learn and understand. Now the next thing I want to talk about is the Reasonable Man Doctrine. We've probably heard about the Reasonable Man Doctrine in civil cases a lot.

Essentially, uh, the Reasonable Man is, uh, What would a reasonable person do under the same or similar circumstances that you were in? If the reasonable person or the reasonable man would have done the same thing that you did, guess what? You get to sleep at home. But if you wouldn't have, guess what?

You're sleeping on a, on a bunk in jail. Now, just because I say I was in fear of immediate death or serious bodily injury or harm doesn't make it so, especially if the police or the prosecutors don't agree. There's a lot that can go into a self defense case. I just wrote an appeal for a gentleman out of Akron, Ohio, who brandished his firearm.

Um, and again, he admitted everything he did, but the judge didn't feel that there was some evidence of self defense. Now, either do I, but my job was to argue as best I could. And it's important. Uh, that we know the way the laws operate, the way the laws work, and that we have attorneys that do also. You'd be very surprised how many attorneys out there have no idea about self defense laws or firearms laws in the state of Ohio.

How can they? They change so often. At this, this is all I do, so I have nothing better to do, so to speak, than, than pay attention to what's going on. But please. Don't use your cousin's divorce attorney if you use a firearm of self defense. I can't tell you how many times that's happened, and I've had to come in and try to back clean up for that.

Make sure that you have a well respected criminal defense attorney, uh, on the other end of the line. So, how then does the trier of fact, the judge or jury decide if our actions were reasonable? You know, that's the million dollar question. Uh, go to jail or go home. To each of us as people wanting to use lethal force in self defense, it's a question you must be able to answer.

Why did you subjectively believe that you were in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm? Now, hopefully you can tell me that, because if you can't tell me why you shot him, her, or the 14 year old teenager boy from next door, Then how can you convince a jury if you can't even tell me why you did that?

After all, you have to be able to justify your actions. So why? Let me tell you why. Because I was in fear of what? Death, serious body and injury harm. Now how do I convince a jury or a judge that I acted recently? Think about the acronym. op, uh, the, uh, forgot my acronym. Wow, that's 'cause my head of myself.

I apologize. Ability. Opportunity and Jeopardy. Administration of Justice. So think about the administration of justice. A person had the ability to kill you, had the opportunity to kill you, and put you in jeopardy. Sean? Why did you use lethal force? Because I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm.

Well, I understand that, but what made you feel that way? Well, he was standing in front of me with a knife in his hand, screaming, I'm going to kill you. So certainly he had the ability. I'm right in front of him, sitting in a chair, so obviously he had the opportunity. Jeopardy? He scared, I was terrified that he was going to kill me.

I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm. So that's how they all work. I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm because the person had the ability. Had the opportunity and put me in jeopardy. That's my case. As simple as it seems, there's a lot of people that just throw everything on the wall.

Uh, they're bad guys and they're just, so they're just going to say self defense, but they can't prove any of that. And that's the difference between good guys and bad guys. So remember that fictitious reasonable person is constructed and construed out of the morals and experiences of the people that live in your community.

Now, we can probably all say to each other right now, Yeah. Now, the reasonable person in Springdale, Ohio in this room isn't the same reasonable person on the east side of Cleveland, in Chicago, Illinois, or in San Francisco. Can we say that we're all different? So how if you're on vacation and you find yourself in Chicago and somehow you can legally own a firearm, Or somewhere else.

Well, how do you, how do you prove that you're the reasonable person when you really don't think like these people, it's simple, you need a criminal defense attorney from that area. That's why I tell people having me on retainer does you no good if you're on vacation, because you want somebody that donated to the judge's campaign, went to the prosecutor's birthday party, knows everybody there.

That's who you want as an attorney. There's so much more than just legal knowledge to be an effective advocate for your client. So you got to make sure that. Uh, you have somebody from that community that's representing you that can show people that you're just not some strange evil person from Springdale or from Cincinnati, Ohio.

You're a good person. You just happen to be outside of your home element. So why did you do it? Well, let me tell you, because he had the ability to kill me, the opportunity to kill me, and he put me in fear of jeopardy or serious body injury or harm.

Now finally, we're going to get the lethal force in the law, but we've all came in reform. Subjectively, I was in fear of death or serious bodily injury, and remember, it's subjective, it's how did you feel, what did you feel, it doesn't matter how I felt, or how the judge felt, but what did you feel, and can you articulate that, and again, you think the administration of justice, the ability, opportunity, and jeopardy, that's why you're here tonight, and that's what you have to remember, it's kind of simple, so, like I said, I always fear that everybody goes home, but they never really know, and When they're allowed to use lethal force and self defense.

I hope people have a better understanding right now. You have a right to use lethal force because you're in fear of death. You're about to be killed. The only way that you can avoid being killed or being injured severely is by taking the other person's life. Or by using lethal force. It's pretty clear that way.

I can't do anything. We don't have a duty to retreat in the state of Ohio. We removed that a few years back too. So we have no duty to retreat, but subjectively, we have no, we have no right to use lethal force until what? Until we determine that we're in fear of death or serious bodily injury or harm.

Then in a state of Ohio, we are legally permitted to use lethal force to protect ourselves because. At that point in time without the duty retreat, that's really the only way that we can protect ourselves. Is by using lethal force. So, so people who thought, and I, uh, represented the last two people that second call defense represented for, uh, using, uh, lethal force to self defense.

And in both cases, one in new Carlisle, Ohio, one in Columbus, Ohio, their assailants were killed by the second call defense members. And I always tell people. It was over in three seconds from beginning to end. So if you carry your firearm without a round in the chamber, you're not going to make it. If you are going to determine whether you can use lethal force religiously, philosophically, as a human being, if you want to make that decision when this is happening, you're not going to make it.

You need to have that discussion with yourself, with your spouse. With your inner being that your life is more important than somebody else's. I can't tell you how many people out there that will take a bullet and will die before they take another human life. I'm not that way. So I don't understand now.

I want to come home and see my kids and soon my grandkids. So, you know, And I'm hopeful that everybody in this room feels the same way. You have to remember that that decision has to be made ahead of time because you will not have time to make it Columbus, Ohio client stops at a food truck to get food, orders his food, sits in his car.

He looks over in the parking lot. Three people are approaching him. He's nervous. He's a concealed carry holder. He was so nervous, his hair was standing up on his arms. When stuff like that happens, folks, it happens for a reason. So he took his firearm out and put it on his seat because he knew something was going to happen.

Well, they came up and said, man, our car is dead behind the UDF. Can you drive back there and jump our car? Nah, man, I'm not going to do

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