McCabe: DOJ, FBI Folks Worried About Being Thrown in Jail in Second Trump Term

COLLINS: “My next guest knows firsthand what it’s like to be at the center of Trump’s attacks. Andrew McCabe was the acting FBI Director after Trump fired James Comey, and drew Trump’s wrath after he opened two investigations into the former president. It’s great to have you here. Because just few people know the inner workings of the FBI better than you do. And you’ve also personally experienced the pressure from Donald Trump. And when you see him promising this wholesale takeover of the Justice Department, I wonder how you worry about what that will look like.”
McCabe: “Yeah, Kaitlan, I mean, I worry a lot about it. And I think it’s — you know, when you think about these things, and you try to predict how Donald Trump is going to react, or the steps he’s going to take, you really don’t have to go any further than listening to the things he says and does. I mean, his comments recently are offensive and horrendous, but they’re not surprising in any way. He’s been saying this for quite some time, ‘I will be your retribution,’ as it’s refrain to his supporters. So, you know him. You know what motivates him. He is not a person who is driven by principle or ideology. He is someone who’s entirely transactional, and if he feels like he’s been wronged in some way, then he focuses on revenge and vengeance. And so, he’s made it perfectly clear that that’s what he’s going to do. And in the process of seeking that, he is going to really — he runs the risk of really dismantling and greatly incapacitating the Department of Justice and the FBI. And that is something that Americans, on both sides of the political aisle, should be worried about. We depend on those institutions to protect us. And he is proposing to tear them down.”
COLLINS: “What do people inside the FBI think when they hear a comment like that?”
McCabe: “You know, it’s — it’s terrifying. It’s frightening. I have a lot of conversations with former colleagues, people who are or were in the intelligence and law enforcement community, and may have worked in the Obama Administration, other places, and people are really trying to assess, like, what is life going to be like if Donald Trump wins a second term? And on a very personal level, I mean, these are torturous discussions with their family members about whether or not they have to leave the country to avoid being — “
COLLINS: “Wow.”
McCabe: “ — unconstitutionally and illegally detained. I mean, people are actually worried about being thrown in jail, or grabbed in some sort of extra-judicial detention. And I think as crazy as this sounds in the United States of America, I think people should really consider that these are possibilities. Listen to what the man says. He typically does what he says, as crazy as it seems. And that’s really all the indicators you need.”
COLLINS: “Well, and the one person he keeps referencing — I mean, obviously, we’ve heard names like yours come up, like James Comey, who I spoke with here last night. He, just moments ago, tonight, in a brand-new interview, again referenced Hillary Clinton, not by name, but he said, ‘Wouldn’t it be terrible if someone did this to the Secretary of State,’ making a clear reference to her. And you take that — do you take that seriously that he would actually try to do something like that?”
McCabe: “You’d be crazy not to take it seriously, right? This is ‘Come to D.C., it’s going to be wild.’ He says what he’s going to do. And his followers listen very closely to the words that he uses, the way he makes these oblique and indirect threats to people or institutions, and some of his most ardent followers, most extreme followers, we know are willing to take action on the things they think he’s telling them. And some of them, it’s violent action. Now, there’s a million examples already, Cesar Sayoc, Ricky Shiffer, the list goes on and on, the infamous Comet Ping Pong pizza-shooter. So, yeah, we have to take these things seriously. And he continues to push the envelope and get closer and closer to the edge, and is actually creating the risk of political violence. Because it’s — he believes it’s beneficial to him, doesn’t really care how it’s going to affect Hillary Clinton, Jim Comey, me or anyone else, or the country, for that matter.”
COLLINS: “Do you personally worry about it?”
McCabe: “Yeah, absolutely. I’d be — you know, I’m not going to — I’m not going to hide it. I mean, it is something that anyone who has been in his crosshairs, on his perceived enemies list, I think most of those people are considering the — considering this stuff. You know, people have different ways about thinking about how they’re going to react to it and what they’ll do in the moment, but — those are personal decisions. But it is a very real concern for a lot of people.”
COLLINS: “Andrew McCabe, thank you for joining us on such a serious topic.”
McCabe: “Thanks, Kaitlan.”