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Dialogue between Jesus and Satan Jesus and Lucifer Defiance Satans Defiance Bishop Martin Jakob Lorber english crown Throne pride impotence omnipotence

Dialogue between Jesus and Satan… Satan’s malicious Defiance

Beyond the Threshold Bishop Martin

The Lord Jesus explains:

1. Now I turn to the dragon with the following words: “Satan, how much longer will you keep tempting God, your Lord? How much longer will you abide by your boundless arrogance? What do you hope to achieve against My infinite might, which could destroy you at any time? And if it does not wish to do that, it can nonetheless punish you severely, everlastingly.

2. You are aware that this is the final time allowed to you; during this time you can still raise yourself – or fall forever. What do you intend to do? My will is well known to you. If it were not, you would be without sin. And since My will is known to you as well as the reward and punishment, say, what are you going to do?

3. Behold, everything is rising against you! All the mountains will be flattened and the valleys filled. All the crowns and thrones on earth, erected by you, shall be cast in the fiery lake. What will you do? You will not ever be able to defy My might. You will no longer be free to do anything at all! So speak: What are you going to do? Will you raise yourself or will you fall?

4. Below you is the eternal abyss; and here am I – a Father to all who love Me, and here is My table! Choose – and make it quick! So be it!”

5. Says Satan: “Lord, I know You and I know Your might and my terrible impotence compared with Your boundless, everlasting might. But being aware of this fact, and feeling my impotence deep within my being, I consider it a triumph for my pride to be able to defy You – yes, defy You everlastingly! And I also realize that all Your might has no means of breaking my defiance and conquering my will – except through my complete annihilation, which, however, You could never look at as a victory over me. For a spiritual victory of life could never be gained by total annihilation of the weaker opponent, but only by wise persuasion with the fundamental condition of full freedom for both parties.

6. The basis for such a persuasion, however, must be the unrestricted right to turn to the opposite, if so desired. I am this opposite, and I shall never agree with Your will, justified as it may be. Even if I understand Your will, I shall never adhere to it because I want to demonstrate to You that there is another will opposed to Yours, which Your omnipotence shall never bend as long as You allow me to exist.

7. It is easy enough to be free within Your will. However, to defy You, the Almighty Spirit, in greatest torment, well aware of Your everlasting omnipotence, Your wrath and one’s own helplessness – that is greater than anything that Your all-seeing eye will ever be able to see!

8. That is also the reason for my constant disobedience to You. In it I see the greatest triumph of my impotence against Your omnipotence, for in my impotence I remain forever a victor over Your omnipotence, love and wisdom, as well as Your wrath, and You are unable to bend me, notwithstanding all Your might, strength, love, wisdom, judgment and wrath!

9. It is easy enough to be a Michael, a Gabriel, an Uriel; a celestial dalliance to be a seraph or cherub. But it is quite a different thing to be a Lucifer, the greatest primordial spirit after You, knowing what infinite bliss Your boundless love offers and, at the same time, knowing what growing torment Your judgment and wrath offer! And, still scorning all beatitude and eternal torment, to offer unwavering defiance forever, well aware of one’s impotence, without the slightest hope of ever gaining anything and knowing that one can only eternally lose – such helpless greatness of a creature’s will is endlessly greater than the greatness of Your Deity! And this knowledge brings me greater bliss in all my torment than You and all Your spirits and angels could ever experience! Therefore, do not ever ask me how much longer I shall defy You! My answer shall always be the same: Forever! Forever! Forever! God will never bend me!”

10. Say I: “Oh, you blind, ignorant spirit, how profound your death is that you could imagine to be able to defy Me! You delight in your folly and do not realize that every true or illusory freedom – like the one you imagine to be your own – in the end, must be subject to My will. Who has ever counselled with Me or grasped My ways? Are you so sure that it could not be My hidden will that you must be the way you are? Do you know whether I did not perhaps destine you to your fall from the very beginning? Can the creation ever dictate its Creator how and for what he should create it?

11. A founder makes his big crucibles out of fireproof material. They are placed in a furnace and the sturdy ore within them melts until it is like a liquid, whereupon it is poured into various molds. When the molds are filled, they are cooled down and not subjected to any more heat. The crucible, however, remains in the fire, so that more ore may be melted within it. It is not allowed to cool down until it has become useless, in which case it is discarded forever as useless, burnt-out matter.

12. Am not I a foreman of all works? If so, and if I procure for Myself the tools I want, the way I want them, say, can you defy Me at all? Can you even call it defiance if you are the way you are and cannot be any different from what I want you to be?

13. However, I am not a harsh founder, but a loving one, even prepared to remove My crucibles from their permanent heat, if they so desire and are willing to adapt themselves to the order of My free works. If they are not willing and prefer to forever remain My crucibles, it’s alright with me as well, for I won’t need to bother making new ones. But if they remain crucibles, they are what they have to be and never what they want to be. For a tool cannot be any different from what I made it to be and want it to be.

14. Thus, your would-be defiance in which you delight, is nothing more than an illusion originating in your great blindness. For just as a pot cannot say to the potter: ‘I am as I want to be,’ considering that the potter turns and shapes it as he pleases – you cannot tell Me that you are the way you want to be, since you have to be the way you are, just as I want it! But I, as Eternal Love itself, allow you in your sufficient freedom in your judgment, to enable you to feel and understand your state of torment, so that you can change it if you so desire. If not, you must remain how you are and what you are, not because you want it this way, but because it is My will!

15. If, however, you wish to improve your lot, I shall put another tool in your place to serve Me as you have done. Now speak, what is it you desire! It does not make any difference to Me whether you remain the way you are or whether I replace you with another tool!”

16. In light of this, Satan is quite startled and at a loss of what to say.

17. However, his numerous adherents cry out: “Oh, Lord, if this is the case, deliver us from our long-endured torment and replace us with new, useful tools. We have had enough suffering and have become quite brittle in the fire. Therefore, have mercy upon us and reform us, o Lord, according to Your kindness and love!”

18. Upon hearing this from his adherents, Satan roars and howls in a fit of rage: “Don’t you want to participate in my greatness? Well, then I shall not remain what God wants me to be, but what I myself wish to be! Agree with me!”

19. His adherents cry out once more: “Fool, could you ever will anything that is not God’s will? Is your would-be free will not God’s will? Whatever you will, you cannot do it out of yourself, only God’s will within you can, who will remain your eternally unconquerable judge! May You do as you have been judged, but we have been seized by God’s mercy, and it won’t let us go. As such, we shall do according to our better judgment.”

20. Say I: “Then arise, you wretched beings, and be released! But you, the one, if you will it, remain what you are. Whatever you desire to do now is not your will, but My Divine will – and your will within you shall forever be My judgment!

21. However, in addition to this thorough enlightenment, I allow you a short respite to enable you to ponder the position and state in which you find yourself. If you do want to improve your lot, it will be done. If not, you will stay what you are until the last very prisoner in this period of creation has arisen from the path of the flesh! Whatever will happen to you after that, only I know in all of infinity.”

22. After hearing these words, Satan utters a great cry and rushes out the door, whilst his adherents throw away their dragon armor and stand there, a thousand completely naked souls of wretched appearance, asking to be healed and relieved of their great pain.

23. Now I summon Martin, Borem and Chorel once more, and tell them to guide these wretched beings to the cooling bath. The three immediately do as they were told, and the thousand wretches find relief in the bath.

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