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124. Dr. Liester and how Ketamine works
Today I talk with Dr. Mitchell Liester. He talks about treating issues like depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, ADHD, boarder line personalty disorder with ketamine. His results are amazing!
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124. Dr. Liester
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Dr. Mitchell Liester: [00:00:00] I have a patient with borderline personality disorder, which historically is extremely difficult to treat. There are no medications for it. This poor woman had suffered with depression and daily suicidal ideation for over 25 years. She tried to kill herself twice, once by overdosing on medication, and the second time she almost succeeded.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She walked in front of a semi truck on the interstate, survived with a traumatic brain injury, multiple fractures of shoulder, arms, ribs, in the hospital for a few weeks. Just five days and got out. We decided to try this, to see if it would work for her and Sam, she's had a remarkable recovery. In fact, we're just about to.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, submit a case study to a journal medical journal to report about this because her response was dramatic. Within nine days, she called me and said, Oh, my God, I've never felt like this before. I hope this last when she came back later. Um, she was her depression was improving markedly. Her relationships were improving.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And by the time she'd gone out for a few months, her depression was in remission. She had no more suicidal thoughts. She was working two jobs. Her daughter, who previously wouldn't even talk to her for a couple of years because her mother was too [00:01:00] emotional and stable, now was calling her for advice. And she's made a really a hundred percent turnaround.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Her depression's in remission. Her, she no longer meets criteria for borderline personality disorder either.
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Dr. Sam Sigoloff: If you've noticed I've been wearing this t shirt for a few episodes now, I have them available on eBay. Check out the links below to get your size.
Nurse Kelly: Welcome to After Hours with Dr. Sigoloff. On this podcast, you'll be encouraged to question everything.
And to have the courage to stand for the truth.
And now, to your host, Dr. Sigoloff.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I first [00:03:00] want to thank you all for joining me and give a shout out to all of my Patreon supporters. We've got 2Tough giving 30 a month. We have The Anonymous Family Donor giving 20. 20. We have The Plandemic Reprimando level at 17. 76 with Tai. Charles, Tinfoil, Stanley, Dr.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Anna, Frank, Brian, Shell, Brantley, Gary, and Sharon. We have the 10 Self Made Level with Kevin and Patton Bev. We have the Refined Not Burned at 5 a month with Linda, Emi, Joe, and Chris. PJ, Rebecca, Marcus, Elizabeth, Dawn, Ken, Rick, Mary, and Amanda. We have Addison Mulder giving 3 a month and Frank giving 1. 50 a month.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And then we have the Courageous Contagious with 1 a month with Jay, Spessnasty, Darrell, Susan, BB King, Caleb. Thank you so much for supporting, uh, me with my endeavors with this show. Uh, please be sure and check out mycleanbeef. com slash after hours. That's mycleanbeef. com slash after hours. Um, So [00:04:00] today our guest, very special man, met Dr. Mitch Leister at the FLCCC conference. Now, we just happened to sit at the same table and it was a perfect fit, I couldn't have sat at a better table. Uh, we had some interesting conversations, we had common interests, uh, but Dr. Mitch, great to see you again. How have things been with you?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Doing very well, Sam.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Thanks. It's great to see you, too. Thanks for inviting me to your program.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, you do the, you're a psychiatrist, correct?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Yes, I am. Yeah, I'm a clinical psychiatrist, uh, an associate. I'm an assistant clinical professor in psychiatry at the University of Colorado School of Medicine as well.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And you have a treatment plan or a treatment regimen that you've discovered over the last few years that helps with certain specific disease processes.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Can you get into that a bit and kind of explain what that is and some of the results that you've seen with that?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Sure Sam, I'm happy to and I also have a slide deck [00:05:00] PowerPoint if that will help explain things too. Yeah. So briefly the treatment we're using is a medicine called Uh huh. Do you want to get the slide deck set up?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Would it be good to share that now? Yeah. Yeah. I can, uh, let me see if I can get it set up for you. Okay, are you able to see that? What I've got here is a PowerPoint presentation to explain this topic of low dose sublingual ketamine. On the first slide, it's just a title slide. The second slide, Sam, is just a disclaimer one that we have to put in there because this is a, uh, Off label use for ketamine just explains that, uh, not recommending people go out and try this on their own.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They should consult with their doctor. But the real point behind this topic is that a lot of people in this country are suffering with depression. On the third slide, you see that there are over 17 million adults and almost 2 million kids are being diagnosed with depression. So it's a real problem and it's growing every day, probably for a lot of different reasons, including COVID, post COVID, et cetera.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And the fourth slide explains that a lot of the traditional medicines we've used for treating depression and [00:06:00] other psychiatric diseases just often don't work. Leaves people feeling depressed, uh, despite the treatment. In fact, on the fifth slide, you see that, uh, as many as a third, close to a third of people who have depression are diagnosed with what's called treatment resistant depression, which means they failed at least two trials of conventional antidepressants.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They just haven't been effective, which leaves these people suffering. And even the people that do respond sometimes don't have a very good response. Thanks. And not only that, but on the sixth slide it talks about how these medicines also cause, the conventional medicines cause a lot of side effects. On the next slide, the 7th, you see that one major class of antidepressants called SSRIs have a lot of side effects.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They cause sexual dysfunction, they can cause drowsiness, weight gain, etc. Which means a lot of people just don't even want to take these medicines, and sometimes the side effects are worse than the benefits for some people. So we've discovered an alternative on the 8th slide, which is a medicine called ketamine.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And ketamine is a very interesting medicine that we'll talk about briefly, but I want Just want to mention that it's an alternative. Some of these conventional antidepressants. Um, [00:07:00] and in fact, on the next slide, you can see what we're prescribing for people. These little squares of orally dissolving ketamine called trochees, T R O C H E, and these ketamine trochees are very low dose, and they have a lot fewer side effects.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: then we see with some of the conventional antidepressants, so not only are they safe, they're effective, and they're a lot cheaper as well. Next slide, slide 10, you can see that, uh, ketamine does not have some of these side effects the SSRIs have. It doesn't cause sexual dysfunction, it doesn't cause weight gain, it doesn't cause dry mouth, fatigue, or some of the shaking you can get with some of the conventional antidepressants.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It doesn't mean ketamine is safe for everybody, and you should just take it as much as you want. There is a problem with recreational use. On the next slide, the 11th slide, you see a picture of Matthew Perry, who was in the news, unfortunately, recently, after he died. Um, the press made it sound like it was because he took ketamine, but, uh, they actually had his autopsy posted online, and I took a look at it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Turns out he did have a very high level of ketamine in his system, and it was reported that he was using intravenous ketamine as a treatment for depression, [00:08:00] but the level he had in his bloodstream was much higher than what he would have received from those intravenous treatments. So, in fact, he was probably using recreationally on top of it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And that wasn't what killed him, though. What happened is he apparently drowned in his, I can't remember if it was a pool or a hot tub, so he probably fell asleep and drowned, but the press made it out to sound like he was, um, the ketamine that killed him, which wasn't the case. Next slide, slide 12, it talks about the advantages of The sublingual form, under the tongue form, versus other ways that ketamine is being used.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It is being used intravenously, it's even being used intranasally to treat depression, but the under the tongue has much fewer side effects, it's not as expensive, and the benefits last, whereas with the IV or the sub, uh, intranasal, once you stop the treatment, the symptoms come back. So, in the 13th slide, you see, uh, the first, uh, description of how ketamine came into existence, and it was an interesting story.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Ketamine was first synthesized in the 1960s, uh, by some scientists at Park Davis, uh, pharmaceutical company. And they were looking for a general anesthetic to put people to sleep for surgery, because the [00:09:00] one they were using had some real problems. It was called Fincyclidine, and when they anesthetized people for surgery, then they woke up, they would be very combative, agitated.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And the other name for Fincyclidine is called PCP, or on the street it's called angel dust. And at one point that was being used as a general anesthetic, but it didn't work well. So these scientists came up with an alternative, it's a It's a slightly modified form and analog and it's called ketamine. So that was when it was first discovered.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It was first approved by the FDA in 1970 as a general anesthetic and has been used since then as an anesthetic is still used today. Um, but a long, a little bit later in 2000, on the next slide, slide 14, you see that some researchers at Yale back in 2000 discovered that if they give lower doses of ketamine, a sub anesthetic dose.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It actually provided rapid antidepressant effects. Sometimes people within hours or within days would report improvement in their depression. So as a result of that, ketamine clinics have popped up all over the country now where people can go in and get an intravenous infusion of ketamine and their depression rapidly improves.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: But there are some problems with that. First of [00:10:00] all, it's very expensive. Um, each infusion can run anywhere from 250 to 1, 000. Not so much for the medicine, but for the time of the physician or nurse monitoring the treatment. Um, people often have sort of a psychedelic like effect that they don't like. Um, and then again, once the infusion stopped, the symptoms can come back.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, so on the next slide, slide 15, you see that, uh, uh, over time they discovered that, um, sublingual ketamine could also be used, um, and it had some real advantages. This is a study from, uh, 2013 showing that, uh, just very low doses, as low as 10 milligrams a day under the tongue, every two to seven days even.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Improved depression over three fourths of the patients who used it in both unipolar and bipolar depressions was a real breakthrough. But that study just kind of was ignored for a long time. Everybody just, uh, just didn't even look at it. There's not a lot of money to be made in sublingual ketamine, so I think, unfortunately, there wasn't much of a profit motive.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And that kind of held back the research. Uh, next slide, slide 16, shows that, uh, just a few years ago, some researchers [00:11:00] down in Brazil discovered that ketamine also occurs in nature. They were looking for treatments for parasites and came upon this fungus. Next slide, please. That would kill parasites. They took the fungus back to the lab to see what it was making.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It turns out it was making ketamine. So you can actually find ketamine in nature if you know where to look. So one of the big questions, the next slide, 17, is how does this work? And how does ketamine treat depression? It's an anesthetic that's used for other things. Sometimes doctors prescribe it for pain management as well.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: But how does it work for depression? Well, slide 18 shows it actually promotes neural regeneration or it stimulates the nervous system to grow and repair. And it does this in slide 19 by increasing a protein that we have in our body and in our brain called BDNF. It stands for Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So what is this magic protein that stimulates our brain to grow? Slide 20 shows, uh, it's again B, D, and F, and the next slide, 21, shows a picture from some research at, uh, back at Yale when they took a picture in electron microscope of neurons [00:12:00] before and after ketamine. And what you can see in this picture is that, uh, the top, uh, Red line is a, a nerve or a nerve cell neuron from a rat that shows a couple little bumps on it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: These are called bulbs or spikes. And these bulb or spikes grow out and connect with bulb or spikes on other neurons and create connections called synapses. And the bottom picture shows that after ketamine treatment, these, uh, bulbs or spikes grew, uh, or much, quite a few more of them. And that was because of the BDNF.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It actually stimulates the nerve cells to produce new, uh, synapses. There's one other interesting thing about ketamine, on the next slide, 22. In late, uh, 2022, some researchers at MIT wrote a paper about something called silent synapses. And these are connections in the brain that are dormant, and they're just asleep.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They're not functioning. They're missing a protein that they need to turn them on. And they say as many as a third of the connections or synapse in our brain may be these dormant or silent synapses. And it turns out the protein that's needed to turn them on is something that ketamine triggers the [00:13:00] production of.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So ketamine may be actually waking up our brain in ways that hadn't been predicted before. And just a few more slides. Slide 23 shows that the Response to ketamine varies with the dose. At low doses, you don't see much response, but as you increase the dose, the body starts producing more of this BDNF, which I think of as miracle growth for the brain.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Stimulates the growth of the nerve cells, new nerve cells are produced, new connections are produced. But if you keep increasing the dose, you actually do more harm than good. If you go too high, The brain stops producing BDNF, you actually get a damage to the nerve cells, something called excitotoxicity.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And so excessive use of ketamine is not a wise choice. You want to keep the dose down. The next slide, 24, just explains that, um, with ketamine, you start seeing improvement in depression. Um, and with the sublingual ketamine, it's slow, uh, slower than the IV, but it's more long lasting. We're seeing really some dramatic changes in people who have not responded to antidepressants for decades.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And after sometimes a month or two of this, under the Tunketamine, they're going into remission, they're [00:14:00] feeling markedly improved, and those benefits last, and they continue to grow, so that even though in the first month or two people may improve in terms of their depression, over time other things improve.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Their anxiety gets better, uh, they sleep better, their PTSD improves, their ADHD improves, um, their obsessive compulsive disorder improves, and it just keeps going. After years or so, we're even seeing some pro cognitive effects. People's memory is improving, their ability to learn improves, um, people are reporting their intuition improves.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's just seeing some really remarkable results. And on the next slide, last slide actually, um, this is a poster, a copy of a poster we presented the World Psychiatric Congress last year in Vienna, Austria. showing our results with the first 49 patients we treated with ketamine. It's a little bit complex, but it just shows that 96 percent of the people who we treated with this sublingual ketamine improved to varying degrees.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: About a third got about 50 percent better, about a third got 50 75 percent better, and then about 25 percent went into total remission, no more depression. And only 4 [00:15:00] percent of the people showed no response. And this slide also includes the protocol we used and some possible ways that it works. So, what we're hoping is that by putting this information out there, some other doctors will learn about it and start using it as well.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We do have doctors now in Phoenix that we know, some colleagues in Tucson as well as Denver. They're trying this and having also remarkable results as they're starting to spread the word as well. So, that's the message I wanted to pass on to folks that are interested is there's a new treatment for not just psychiatry, uh, And, so, based disorders like depression, anxiety.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We're also seeing some improvement in neurologic disorders. People are spontaneously reporting improvement in peripheral neuropathy. We're also trying in a patient with ALS. Also have seen my colleague here in Carl Springs, Dr. Rachel Wilkinson has had some success reversing dementia in some patients and also seeing some evidence of brain regrowth after sustained treatment with this ketamine.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: This is incredible. This is, this seems like it's a miracle that you have found that you've helped discover. [00:16:00]
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, you know, when it first came out, I was very skeptical, to be honest with you, it sounded a little too good to be true, but when my colleague, Dr. Wilkinson said, you know, Mitch, you know, you won't believe the results with this, I thought, yeah, I've heard that before, but I know her, I've known her for a while and trust her, so I decided to try it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And it was kind of funny because in the beginning she said, you're going to see results, just tell people to be patient. And so people would come back after a month or two in the medicine and they were 50 percent better. And I would send her a text in the middle of the day, say, Rachel, I can't believe the results.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She, this is amazing. I've never seen anything like this. And she'd text me back and say, Mitch, calm down. It's going to get better. And sure enough, patients would come back a month or two later, they'd be 75 percent improved. And I texted her again and said, Rachel, I don't believe the results. This is amazing.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She texted me back in and said, Mitch, calm down. It's going to get better. I said, how can they get better than this? She said, give it a few more months. People will be in remission. And she was right. And I had to text her back after that and say, I apologize for doubting you. I didn't. She said, I didn't believe in the beginning either.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She said, I didn't think this was going to be as good as [00:17:00] it is. But she had been prescribing it at that point for two and a half years, had over 200 patients on it. And again, in the beginning, I thought, why would any doctor have 200 patients on this new treatment? Well, Sam, I'm just about there now. I think I've got about 180 patients on it because they're doing so well.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, I don't want to deny people the opportunity to get better.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow, this is incredible. So go through a list of some of the things that you've personally seen it work better and and your colleague has seen it improve. So you mentioned OCD, PTSD, depression, ADHD.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Yes, uh, it's, it's really, I have a patient with borderline personality disorder, which historically is extremely difficult to treat.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: There are no medications for it. This poor woman had suffered with depression and daily suicidal ideation for over 25 years, just miserable and no medicines were helping. She tried to kill herself twice, once by overdosing on medication, and the second time she almost succeeded. She walked in front of a semi truck on the interstate.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And, uh, survived with a traumatic [00:18:00] brain injury, multiple fractures of shoulder, arms, ribs. She was in bad shape. They took her to the ICU. She's in the hospital for just five days and got out. We decided to try this to see if it would work for her. And Sam, she's had a remarkable recovery. In fact, we're just about to Um, submit a case study to a journal medical journal to report about this because her response was dramatic within nine days.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She called me and said, Oh, my God, I've never felt like this before. I hope this last when she came back later. Um, she was her depression was improving markedly. Her relationships were improving. And by the time she'd gone out for a few months, her depression was in remission. She had no more suicidal thoughts.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She was working two jobs. Her daughter, who previously wouldn't even talk to her for a couple of years because her mother was too emotionally unstable, now was calling her for advice. And she's made a really 100 percent turnaround. Her depression's in remission. She no longer meets criteria for borderline personality disorder either.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow! There's nothing for borderline personality disorder. Those people live this terrible self destructive life for the rest of their life. [00:19:00] And, you know, explosion of relationships over and over and over and, and it's changed. She's no longer meets criteria. That's incredible.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Sam, it's, it's one of the most amazing things I've been practicing for almost 40 years now.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I've never seen anything like it. And the joy now in my practice is seeing people coming in who are doing so much better. For so many different causes. Yes. Yes, about other other conditions. So in psychiatry is also working for people to struggle with bipolar disorder, which can be difficult to treat partly because antidepressants can make the condition worse by triggering what are called manic episodes.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: The ketamine doesn't do that. So it's providing mood stabilization as well as treating their depression. So they're improving. Even they're improving so much, Sam, that a lot of the people we're treating now are getting off their conventional medications. They don't need antidepressants after a while.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They don't need ADHD medicines. They don't need medicines for PTSD or OCD or ADHD. Uh, and so that's remarkable to see after maybe a year or two. And then Dr. Wilkinson, who's been now prescribing for over four years, [00:20:00] tells me that some patients, after about three years, Don't even need ketamine anymore. So it's as if it's healed their brains and they have remained stable for up to six months so far, even without ketamine, no medication whatsoever.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So we're really excited about the potential to help people with this medicine.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, kind of walk me through like a treatment regimen, how it works, how it looks from your side and then what the patient typically sees during that, that timeframe.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Absolutely. So, we, uh, Dr. Wilkinson developed a protocol, I call it the Wilkinson protocol because she's the one that was smart enough to come up with it and we're using it as a starting point.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: What we do is we have people start with just 25 milligrams of ketamine, they put it under their tongue at bedtime. Uh, and the reason for that is some people feel a little bit either, uh, mildly tipsy, some people describe it as like they've had a glass of wine. Or a little bit mildly dizzy if they get up and walk around.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So if they lay down at bedtime, they just fall asleep. And that if they do experience that mild tipsy feeling, uh, it's very short lived. Usually between five minutes and an hour. Some people find it pleasant. They kind of like it. They just relax and fall asleep. [00:21:00] Some people don't even feel it. And so they take 25 milligrams under their tongue every third night for four doses.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: After that, they take 25 milligrams under their tongue every other night for four doses, and then they increase to 25 milligrams every night. Now, we give it some time, usually within, uh, one to four weeks of that dose, people start noticing improvement. It's gradual. Um, if they don't respond, then we can increase the dose.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And in some occasion, uh, some instances, that 25 milligrams is a little too strong for people, so we've actually had people who've cut back their dose. So the range we're finding that's effective can be anywhere from, um, Uh, the lowest I have anybody on is 6 mg and the lady is taking it every third day, only twice a week and she's doing marvelously.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And there are some people that take doses as high as 150 mg to 175 mg and they do well at that dose. So each individual responds differently, so we just start low, go slow until we find a dose that works optimally for people and then we stay at that dose because the benefits keep accruing. For a year, there are even additional benefits the second year, and Dr.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Wilkinson tells me [00:22:00] even more benefits the third year. So we don't have to keep increasing the dose, we just keep people at a steady state dose.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So when you say the third year, the third year of the same treatment dosage?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Correct, yes. In fact, some people, she tells me, I've only been prescribing this now for a little over a year, maybe a year and a quarter.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She's been doing it for four years. And says that some people after about that third year start finding they just don't need the ketamines as much, starts cutting back on the dose. And like I said, some people wean off of it, just don't need any medicine any longer. And it kind of makes sense, Sam, that, you know, what we're seeing is a lot of these conditions we've been treating for years, we thought were due to chemical imbalances in the brain.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's starting to look like it's more likely due to inflammation in the brain, which could be caused by a variety of things, systemic inflammation, um, autoimmune disorder, stress, a lot of things can cause inflammation in the brain, what's called neuroinflammation, and the ketamine repairs that, so instead of treating symptoms, we're really getting to the root cause of their conditions, we believe, and it's making a huge difference for people.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's amazing. I love getting to the root cause of things. And one thing that, uh, I'm a huge advocate and love [00:23:00] talking about is diet and how that gets to the root cause of even brain inflammation.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, and that's interesting you mention that, Sam, because I just recently was at a conference where they talked about dietary interventions for not only psychiatric disorders, but medical disorders.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And they were reporting through some dietary changes, some very similar results to what we're seeing. Even the ability to get patients with severe psychiatric disorders off their medications. Um, Dr. Chris Palmer from Harvard was talking about a patient with chronic schizophrenia for 40 years, who after dietary changes was able to get off her medication and remain symptom free for the next 15 years of her life.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And, uh, I was curious about that. I mean, patient, uh, patient after patient was being described to with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and depression. Was able to improve, um, with dietary changes very similar to what we're seeing with ketamine. So I reached out to Dr. Wilkinson, my colleague about this, and I said, how is this possible that we're getting similar results?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We found out that certain types of dietary changes, particularly low carb [00:24:00] diets, can also release BDNF in the brain, the same sort of miracle grow product that stimulates the brain cells to grow. So it looks like we probably found two different pathways that converge at healing and repairing the brain, and not just the brain, but the remainder of the body as well.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Now, I want to mention that if anybody wants to learn more about Dr. Chris Palmer, he was recently on a podcast with Dr. Jordan Peterson, and he talks about that case who had, um, that patient who had, was it, um, um, schizotypal or, or some, A personality disorder and completely reverse their disease just by changing their, their eating habits, doing extremely low carb.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I think they were doing carnivore.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I believe it. And I think Sam, the problem is, as you know, most of us physicians got little or no training about nutrition in medical school. And so I got zero, but not one minute. And so really wasn't aware of the potential benefits. I'm fortunate that my oldest daughter is a registered dietitian.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's been trying to educate me for a long time about these benefits. And. I was a little skeptical in the beginning, but now I'm seeing it. She's reversing all kinds of medical [00:25:00] conditions. Patients with diabetes, um, are improving. Some of my patients now that she works with are having significant improvement in their mental health.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So I think, yes, I think dietary interventions are hugely important and we're excited about, we're starting to combine dietary interventions with ketamine to try to, Uh, boost the response people are getting. So, uh, we're starting to publish some papers, hopefully very soon about this, uh, and I hope we'll have more to publish in the future, and hopefully we can stimulate other people to do some research as well.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: One thing you mentioned in your, in your, uh, presentation, you said excessive use. When you have excessive use, the return becomes less and actually can be seemingly harmful. Um, by excessive use, do you mean dosage at one time or dosage, same dosage over time? So like same dosage every day for multiple days in a row.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Yeah, great question. So there are two things that could happen with higher doses of ketamine. The first thing is you actually shut off production of BDNF instead of increasing it. Um, if you go to too high of a dose, single dose, [00:26:00] you don't get any BDNF release. That's one problem. The other is something called excitotoxicity, which is a process that occurs.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: When you have too much of a, um, amino acid, that's also a neurotransmitter called glutamate in the system. And in the brain, if you have too much glutamate, it damages neurons. It kills them. And, uh, ketamine does work on glutamate. So stimulating a little bit of it can be helpful, but too much is not good.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's like what we learned in medical school. The only difference between a medicine that poisons the dose. And that's certainly true with ketamine. So you can actually reduce healing of the brain, If you go to higher, but if you go excessively high, you can actually damage the brain. And, uh, that's where people need to be careful to using it recreationally, because if they go too high, they're going to actually do some damage.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And when you say recreationally in those high doses, are those the kind of doses that drug users and abusers, when they call keyhole, when they just kind of disappear into nothingness, is that the kind of high dosage that you're talking about?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Probably. Yeah. At higher doses than we're using, ketamine has very [00:27:00] different effects.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, again, the low doses, it hardly has any. perceptible effects on consciousness is very mild if any. As you go up on the dose like with the IV doses, which are still safe, and that's about usually a half a milligram per kilogram is the typical dose that they infuse over about 40 minutes intravenously, people have psychedelic like experiences, but they're not doing damage to their brain.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: But unfortunately, recreationally, some people go much higher using ketamine. And when they do that, yes, they go into the K hole, the keyhole, where they have not only profound changes in consciousness, but again, sometimes they have Neurotoxic changes their brains as well, and that's not a good thing.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, kind of walk me through the patient experience and, and like how they take the medication. Because you, you mentioned those little, they look like little pieces of paper. Or is it a liquid, or how does that work from their perspective? And then
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Sure. Yeah, sure, Sam. It's, it's a gelatinous like substance.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: That the pharmacy makes it has to be made at a [00:28:00] compounding pharmacy, the average pharmacy or local pharmacy won't have this. It doesn't come from pharmaceutical companies this way. It has to be made and we have a wonderful pharmacist here in Colorado Springs that knows how to make it. And he's been doing it for several years now.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's spreading. They're also pharmacists. We work with pharmacies in other. Um, cities around Colorado, and I know there's a friend of mine is a compounding pharmacist in Mesa, Arizona, and also makes sublingual ketamine, these ketamine trochees. So, what people do when they get them, each trochee is typically, that we make, is 100 milligrams.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So, the patient cuts it in fourths, and just puts a quarter of that little square under their tongue. And, uh, what people describe oftentimes initially is the taste is unpleasant, it's got a bit of a bitter taste. So the pharmacies will often put a flavoring in it. Sometimes they use wintergreen, I've had patients have bubblegum flavored or uh, cherry marshmallow, candy, cotton candy, all, watermelon, all kinds of flavors try to cut that bitter taste.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: But it's not bad enough that anybody stopped the medicine because of the bitterness. Some people say it's not bad at all and they use it unflavored. And once it's under their tongue, um, people [00:29:00] start feeling relaxed and calm typically. If they feel anything, some people feel nothing and that calm, relaxed feeling helps some people just fall asleep.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Occasionally, maybe less than 10 percent of the time, some people have an opposite reaction where they feel energized like they've had a cup of coffee. If that happens, we have two options. We can either cut down the dose to relieve that or some people take it earlier in the day instead of at bedtime. If they do that, I just ask them not to drive for an hour.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: The reason being that if they do feel that sort of tipsy feeling, we don't don't want them on the road and that pass is usually Um, and less than an hour. And, uh, that tipsy feeling, like I said, for some people is very pleasant. Um, if people get up and go to the bathroom during the night, they can, they, they feel a little lightheaded or dizzy, but nobody's hurt themselves or fallen from that.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, and then that wears off within an hour and the next morning people feel nothing. It has a very short half life, um, which means it's out of our system after taking it sublingually probably within about 10 hours or so. So if you take it at night by the time you wake up the morning the medicine's out of your system and you just go on about your normal day.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And the biggest challenge for people is [00:30:00] to be patient because most of the time for the first four to six weeks people feel nothing and then very gradually once the medicine starts working they start noticing just gradual improvement. They say that I'm feeling a little bit Uh, less depressed or a little less anxious or I'm sleeping a little better.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, and then that gets progressively worse. There are some ups and downs over time, but the gradual improvement is pretty noticeable. I sometimes tell people it's like watching your own hair grow from day to day. You don't see any change, but week to week or month to month, you know when the hair is getting longer.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And that's what people describe with the medicine. There are some fast responders. I had one lady that went from severe depression. Um, to no depression within one month, but that's unusual. Usually that takes two or three, maybe even four months. Um, but people do notice gradual improvement. And then it's interesting because people will start adding additional comments about additional observations they've made.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: For example, I've heard the word resilient more in the last year than I've heard in my whole career. People will come in and say, I'm just more resilient. I can just handle things better. The things that used to [00:31:00] bother me just don't bother me as much anymore. And people are describing some really remarkable changes, um, past traumas, uh, things that have happened to them in their childhood or when they were younger, just that they used to bother them still that doesn't bother them anymore.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They said, you know, I've, I've dealt with it. I've thought about it. It just doesn't have the same impact on me anymore. People are even healing relationships that have been broken for decades. Um, and this resiliency is really amazing. And it's allows people sometimes. Yeah. To, um, also think creatively and problem solve.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, and it doesn't mean people are more passive people. Sometimes they're getting out of jobs that weren't working for them because they say, I just don't have to put up with that or tolerate it anymore. I was before I felt like I just had to hang in there. Now I don't feel that way anymore. So people are finding it easier to make constructive changes in their life as well.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: That's kind of fun to hear. And then sometimes we're even hearing spontaneous reports of improvement neurologic conditions. One of the most common is peripheral neuropathy. I must have had seven or eight patients just voluntarily say, That's great. Dr. Leaster, I don't know, I not only feel less [00:32:00] depressed, but my peripheral neuropathy pain is either markedly reduced or it's gone.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And not everybody experiences that, but a high percentage of people do. I'm also hearing people report their fibromyalgia is better now. Um, and people are even saying, you know, I think it's because I'm emotionally more stable. I don't have the, I don't feel the stress I felt before. My fibromyalgia pain is just improving.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's really fun to hear all the different things that people come in describing, all the different kinds of improvement. I had one gentleman who had, um, post COVID symptoms. He lost his smell and taste and had tinnitus ringing in his ears for seven months. We started him on ketamine for, uh, depression.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And his tinnitus went away quickly and his taste and smell are now are starting to return finally, um, for the first time. So, we're just getting a lot of, uh, reports of additional kinds of benefits. I'll tell you one other. My sister even, uh, was started on it. She has a neurologic condition, a pain disorder called CRPS, complex regional pain syndrome.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And she also had damage to the ulnar nerve in her left arm from a car accident 30 years [00:33:00] ago. So, her doctor put her on the ketamine because it's reported to help with CRPS. But what she didn't expect was that the Damaged her left ulnar nerve, um, which caused her left pinky finger and ring finger to be numb for 30 years, suddenly got better too.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And she can now feel those fingers for the first time in 30 years after taking ketamine. We didn't expect that. And I keep checking with her. Can you still feel those fingers? And she can, it's been months now and it's still the same.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: How long on treatment before she could feel those, that, that
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I don't remember exactly how many months, but it was a, it was a few months within maybe two or three months.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She started noticing improvement and also her CRPS, she, her feet had been numb and they're no longer numb after treatment with the ketamine.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow. I mean, just everything that you're mentioning, I can, I can picture a patient in my head that I think might benefit from this because we all, So, you know, if, if you're in this profession, we all have patients that are, have these, these incurable problems.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And it's just so heartbreaking that we can't offer anything.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Exactly. So, I mean, that's what's made this so [00:34:00] much fun for me is that people that used to be considered treatment resistant, there was no hope for them. Now there's not only hope, but significant improvement. Um, And I think that's why it's spreading so fast.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And when I've told some of my colleagues about it at first, they were very skeptical, but I, as I was in the beginning, but it's so much fun. I just got a call from a psychiatrist friend in Denver last week. She's saying, Mitch, I have to talk to you. I've been using your sublingual ketamine protocol. It's working great.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Can we talk? I said, yes. So we got on the phone and she was describing how much improvement she's seeing. Um, I also have a friend who's a, uh, a doctor practicing position in Mesa, Arizona. He says the same thing. I have one other colleague here locally in Colorado Springs. He's a neuro oncologist, a very, very bright neuro oncologist.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: When I first told him about this, he was very skeptical and said, show me the studies. So I did. I sent him several studies showing this, how this worked. He read them. He said, you know, this looks like it might work. I think I'll try it. And when I saw him the next time, a month or two later, he said, Mitch, he said, it's working great.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He said, a lot of my patients responding, he said, the biggest problem I'm having those when I try to talk to my colleagues, the other [00:35:00] neurologists, they don't know anything about it. They don't understand it. And they won't take the time to read the papers. He said, they're just not considering the possibility.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So he said, I'm having a hard time convincing my. Colleagues to try this piece that I'm having great success with it. So I think that's the challenge, Sam, is that most physicians aren't yet aware of this, they don't understand it. And so they're a little hesitant to try it, but I'm hoping that through your podcast, thank you.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And through other recent, um, podcasts we're doing and papers we're writing that hopefully physicians will become more familiar with this treatment and begin using it themselves because any physician. Can prescribe ketamine as long as they have a DEA license. It's what's called a schedule 3 medicine. So it's lower on the scheduling than even something like Adderall or many narcotics.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So it's easy to prescribe. You just need to find a compounding, compounding pharmacist that will make it. And the cost is also important. I should mention that I talked about earlier how these Intravenous infusions can run thousands of dollars for people over time, which is just cost prohibitive for a lot of people.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: The ketamine trophies, um, they, [00:36:00] when they make the 30 little squares, it's approximately $60, and if people stay on just the low dose, 25 milligrams, that will last 'em four months. So we're talking maybe $15 a month. And even if they increase their dose, it's typically not more than maybe $30 a month. So it's very affordable for people.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's incredibly affordable compared to, you know, 600 for an IV session that you do maybe three or four of those a week for six weeks.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Exactly. So it's less expensive, fewer side effects and lasting benefits over time, which is really exciting. So I, I think in the going forward in the future, I think this will probably become the future or the treatment of choice for many disorders once people learn about it. And if, you know, further studies confirm our results, but uh, It's, it's really remarkable and it's, it's just such a joy to see people improving.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Have you seen any, anybody with brain injuries, like let's say stroke or traumatic brain injury? I think you mentioned one patient, your, uh, borderline personality did have some traumatic brain injury, but to help improve with those specific symptoms.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's a great question. [00:37:00] Yes, I'm working with another young man who unfortunately had a couple of severe traumatic brain injuries. He was, uh, in high school. He was camping in the mountains near where we live here. It's pretty common for the kids to go up camping in the mountains. And he decided in the middle of the night that he didn't want to stay so he was driving down the mountain by himself and went off the side of the road and this car tumbled a couple hundred feet and he was stuck in a gully down below and he couldn't get out of the car.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, yelled for help. There was nobody out. It was the middle of the night. He was there for hours until the next day when somebody happened to be driving along. I heard him screaming. They flight for life into the local hospital, had a significant traumatic brain injury, um, recovered from it, but later had a second car accident with another traumatic brain injury that left him disabled, um, for years living at home with his mother and father, struggling.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So just to get through the day, he's very depressed, very irritable, cognitive impairment. So we decided to try it for him and he's doing wonderfully. He's much more happy. He's not depressed. He's not so angry. Um, he's becoming more social. So we're seeing some [00:38:00] real progress. And I'll tell you briefly about a patient, Dr.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Wilkinson's, who, uh, was experiencing some atrophy of her occipital lobes in the back of her brain. And this was documented by MRI. She was seeing a local neurologist and Dr. Wilkinson put her on. Sublingual Ketamine, and after nine months, her functioning started to be improving. So they, at that point, did another MRI and saw that her occipital lobes were regrowing.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: There was actually regrowth. In the back of her brain, which is, was not known to be possible. That can't happen, allegedly. That's what I was taught, Sam. But we've got MRI evidence to document that it did. So that's pretty exciting. When we start seeing it's kind of a paradigm buster. Yeah, it can do things.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We just didn't know it was possible doing. And the nice thing about this too, is, you know, we're not the only ones looking at this. There are some folks at UC Davis in California. Who have come to understand that there are medicines that can stimulate the brain to grow and repair. They've put a new name or label on these medicines.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They call them psychoplastogens, which is a big, [00:39:00] uh, big name. But they say these are medicines that stimulate the brain to grow and both, and improve both functionally and structurally. And they're looking for additional medicines that will do the same thing. What's odd about this is that many of the medicines they found that do this already are what are called psychedelic medicines.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, medicines like psilocybin does the same thing, uh, in their lab. It stimulates the release of BDNF, but these medicines aren't yet available in most places. They may become available. There are clinical trials demonstrating that, uh, psilocybin can have very beneficial effects similar to the ketamine, but, um, they're not yet legally available.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: In the meantime, ketamine is legal, legally available, so it's much easier to use.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. Some of those things you mentioned were schedule one, which means no medical use, but ketamine is schedule three, which means it's even easier to, to get to your patient. That's incredible.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's very easy. You know, it just takes the pharmacy a day or two to make it and they can start on it and then you get to wait to see them back and see how they're doing now.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I will mention again, it doesn't work for [00:40:00] everybody. You know, we do have a small percentage of people who don't seem to benefit. We don't know why yet. Um, there may be a variety of reasons. I did have one gentleman who was doing great on it and then started to relapse back into depression. I asked him, has there been any change in your life?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He said, no. So, are you doing anything differently? He said, the only thing I'm doing differently is having a few drinks at night. I said, well, how many? He said, maybe three to six beers a night. I said, well, can you cut back on that a little bit? He said, sure. So, he came back next time. He was doing well again.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He said, I just stopped drinking. I just didn't need it. So we do know that excessive amounts or higher amounts of alcohol interfere with ketamine. And we believe the mechanism may be that it's causing inflammation of the brain. We know that alcohol can inflame the brain, especially at higher amounts. Um, so that may be one reason some people don't respond.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: There may be other reasons that some people don't respond. We don't know what they are yet, but I think as research continues, hopefully we can find out what some of those barriers are and work around those as well.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's incredible. That's just, that's the most amazing thing I've heard all year.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I got to tell you, [00:41:00] Sam, it's a lot of fun being a psychiatrist these days and being able to help people, especially some of these folks that.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I've been working with for years that, you know, really there wasn't a lot of hope for you. I mean, we kept trying different things, but nothing was working. And suddenly now, you know, they're coming in and telling me not just how well they're feeling, but, uh, but their friends, they're telling you about, I have one lady, when she goes to church, she's telling everybody at church, you know, that they need to try this.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: If they have these problems, because she's had such great results. I said, well, no, it's not for everybody. And they need to get in and see their doctor for an evaluation first. But, uh, people are, uh, promoting it because of the great results they're having. And they're so happy with it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's great to see treatments that are actually safe, actually effective, and people are happy to tell their friends to go see doctor, um, to get this for yourself because it's helped me so much.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's, it's good to see that coming back to the world.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's wonderful. You know, it's wonderful that people, and it's affordable, people can do this treatment. Anybody can just about can afford this. And so it's accessible, which is nice. I mean, some of the new medicines, when they come out in psychiatry, some of the antidepressants, [00:42:00] ADHD meds, they may be 700, 000 a month.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: That's just not accessible. And for some people, even if they have insurance, insurance won't cover these medicines, they're too expensive. So it really has hampered people's access to mental health treatment. But this one is pretty affordable, affordable for just about anybody. So I think we're going to be able to help a lot more people with it also.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Um, when you get to a point where you have more information or another paper published, you have access to my show anytime you want,
Dr. Mitchell Liester: just let me know. Well, thank you, Sam. I appreciate that. Well, we've got several papers that we're submitting. Like I said, we do have. The case report of the patient has borderline personalities or had borderline personalities or doesn't anymore.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We're also hoping to submit a paper. We've looked at the potential of ketamine to heal spinal cord injuries. The reason to believe that it may help those with spinal cord injuries because of this neuroplastic effect that it has in the nervous system. There's a interesting case report, um, of a man here in Colorado who wasn't on ketamine, but, uh, he [00:43:00] was, um, kite skiing, which I had to look that up and see what that was.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Because he was out skiing in Chile, South America. with a, like, parachute like device, a kite, that would carry him across the plains on snow. And when a gust of wind picked him up and slammed him into the ground, and he fractured nine vertebrae, he was paralyzed from the chest down. Um, he had spinal decompression surgery, went into rehab, and he got to where he was able to walk with a walker, but still was pretty much paralyzed.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He went to a concert, and some friends gave him some psilocybin mushrooms, and he started feeling muscles firing in his legs that weren't firing before. And he continued to take it, and now he's able to mountain bike, ski, he's walking. And so that led us to think, you know, what is it about psilocybin mushrooms?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, it turns out they're one of these cycloplastogens that stimulate the nervous system. But a lot of people's spinal cord injuries may not want to take psilocybin, but could ketamine potentially do the same thing? We found out that there are studies showing that other cycloplastogens do show evidence for, uh, helping heal spinal cord injuries.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So we hope to suggest this and [00:44:00] put a paper out there. So maybe some neurologists will pick it up and do some research into it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow, that's just a miracle. I mean, making the lame walk kind of miracle.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's amazing. The things we're seeing really truly are miracles considering what past medicine could and couldn't do.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We're doing things that didn't happen before. And it's just, it's so wonderful to be able to help people in this way.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. And with the occipital lobe regrowing, that's the blind scene. I mean, that's, it's all that.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Sam, it's amazing. Yeah, that, um, that case is supposed to be presented at Harvard Medical School this year.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They've asked her, the, the patient to come to Harvard and talk about her case because they want to understand what happened because that shouldn't normally happen, but it did. And they have, like I said, radiographic evidence. They have MRIs showing it worked. And we ran this by our friend, a neurologist, just to make sure we weren't imagining things.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He said, no, this is truly remarkable. Wow.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's incredible.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So. Yep. So we're hoping that, uh, uh, and thanks to [00:45:00] your podcast and others that maybe more people will learn about this, hear about it and pursue it. Uh, I don't think we have all the answers. I think we're just scratching the surface, but we need help, you know, doing research and, and uh, getting more people out there exploring this and, and finding out maybe are there other regimens of dosing that might work better?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Are there different doses that might work better? You know, we're going with what works for us, but I'm sure there's still a lot we can do to improve what we're doing. Still too. Even adding in things to boost the effectiveness of the ketamine are possible. Um, studies that could be carried out in the future.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, diet mixed with ketamine might, might have even faster
Dr. Mitchell Liester: improvement. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's one of the things that excites me the most. Yes. Making dietary changes that we know stimulate BDNF and exercise. We know exercise stimulates BDNF, not at the level that ketamine does. Yes. What if you start combining treatments?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: How much better could that be for people? And maybe it would accelerate the growth. We don't know, but it's possible.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's amazing. Well, Dr. Leister, thank you so much for coming on with me, sharing so much. Um, this has been just [00:46:00] shocking. I've just been standing here just like, wow, I know a patient that that could help.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I know a patient that could help. And, you know, I've got them in my mind of who, who I would like to try this for, if they'd be willing to try it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, Sam, I know a good pharmacist in Phoenix that can get you the medicine if you decide you want to start prescribing it for your patients. Awesome.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Um, and if people want to get ahold of you, is there a way that people can look at your, your work or find your papers, or should they go to NIH and search your name?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, yeah, I don't have a website, I'm old and so I haven't got my own website, so there are a couple of places, uh, they can go through, they can Google, um, my name, they can, uh, there's a website called ResearchGate that can be accessed by Academicians where I've published all the, all the papers we've done so far.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, and they can also write to me, um, I'm not taking new patients, but I'm glad to share information. My email address is dr. Do I-E-S-T-E-R at proton, P-R-O-T-O-N. Dot me me. And I'll be glad to send people whatever information I have. I [00:47:00] have tons of papers, many, many, many papers about ketamine. It's therapeutic use and I'm glad to share information with anybody that wants to read about it and learn more.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, thank you so much. I, I am so. Grateful that you were able to come and share your, your best wealth of knowledge on this particular subject that I've never heard about before. And I am so grateful to God that you and I just happened to sit at the same table and start talking about these things.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, Sam, there are no coincidences in life.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I don't think it was an accident. I was so happy when you sat down at the table too. And I'm so thrilled that we met and that we're getting to continue as friends and colleagues. And I hope we can continue this collaboration relationship.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yes, sir. God bless you and keep doing his work.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Thank you, Sam.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We're going to do our best.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just a reminder for everyone out there, in duty uniform of the day, the full armor of God, let's all make courage more contagious than fear.[00:48:00]
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Doesn&a
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129. Chewing the Fat with Carnivore JT
Today I talk with Carnivore JT. He is big on social medial. Please listen to hear more. Thank you.
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129. Carnivore JT
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Carnivore JT: [00:00:00] The gospel of LDL is going to kill you is a consensus statement. And what a consensus statement is, is a group of people that are experts in the field get together, look over all the data. They come up with all this information and then they go, this is basically a fact. And their fact is LDL causes heart disease.
Carnivore JT: And because of that, you should start taking these lipid lowering drugs. There's seven pharmaceutical companies listed 143 times. You're telling me that I should start listening to what Pfizer paid these people to come up with I'm the one that's weird for questioning it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Doesn't dinner sound great as it's cooking?
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: This dinner is from Riverbend Ranch. Which always provides prime or high choice. Has never been given hormones. Never been given antibiotics. Never been given mRNA vaccines. It's raised in the USA. It's processed in the USA. In fact, it's fully vertically integrated. Which means that they own the cow. That gives birth to the calf.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's raised on their fields. and then taken to their [00:01:00] butcher and then shipped to you. And if we compare what we can buy from Riverbend Ranch to four other major steak companies that sell bundles that have ribeyes and other meat in it, it can be as much as 184 to 59 less expensive. It's a great price value and it's a delicious piece of meat.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Check out MyCleanBeef.com/AfterHours That's MyCleanBeef.com/AfterHours MyCleanBeef.comslashAfterHours
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: If you've noticed, I've been wearing this t shirt for a few episodes now, I have them available on eBay. Check out the links below to get your size.
Nurse Kelly: Welcome to After Hours with Dr. Sigoloff. [00:02:00] On this podcast, you'll be encouraged to question everything
Nurse Kelly: and to have the courage to stand for the truth.
Nurse Kelly: And now to your host, Dr. Sigoloff.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Hey, first I want to give a shout out to all of my Patreon subscribers. 2TUF giving 30 a month. We've got the Anonymous Family Donor giving 20. 20 a month. We've got the Plandemic Reprimando tier at 17. 76 a month with Ty, Charles, Tinfoil. Stanley, Dr. Anna, Frank, Brian, Shell, Brantley, Gary, and Sharon.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: We've got Kevin Alanos and Patton Bev giving 10 a month. We have the Refine Not Burned tier at 5 with Linda, Emmy, Joe, and Chris. PJ, Rebecca, Marcus, Elizabeth, Dawn, Ken, Rick, Mary, and Amanda. Addison Mulder's giving 3 a month and [00:03:00] Frank is giving 1. 50. And then finally we have the Courage is Contagious tier at 1 a month with Jay, SpessNasty, Durrell, Susan, BB King, and Caleb.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And don't forget to check out MyCleanBeef. com slash After Hours. That's MyCleanBeef. com slash After Hours for better than grass fed, grass finished beef and some of the best beef I've ever tasted in my life. My next guest today is Carnivore JT, or Jason. Now, Jason, you are a subscriber to Carnivore, is that correct?
Carnivore JT: Yes. Yeah, I've been coming up on two years. September will be two years now.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, yeah, two years. That's a wonderful time frame to be doing this. What opened up your mind to do this? And does it have anything to do with your profession? Um, are you in the medical field at all? Um, do you think it would, uh, make it easier if you were in the medical field or more difficult to open your mind to eating this way?
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Thanks
Carnivore JT: Oh man. Uh, [00:04:00] so I am not currently in the medical field. Um, my background is in sports. Uh, and so my, the science end of it, um, my bachelor's is in sports medicine. I have a master's of science and then I spent a number of years coaching, um, baseball collegiately at the division one level in addition to strength, conditioning, personal training, all that jazz.
Carnivore JT: Um, Had a stint of, of amateur bodybuilding in there. So a lot of my background is the nutrition aspect of it. And honestly, I kind of started carnivore because I had kids, got a dad, bod put on a few extra pounds. And I was like, nah, I gotta, I gotta get off of this. And my old tricks were working, but I still, I felt like crap.
Carnivore JT: I was like, man, like. So this is dumb. Like I'm being super strict. I'm not cheating. I'm not having any alcohol. I'm not doing anything and I still feel terrible and by terrible, I mean like I was still bloated all the time. I felt like [00:05:00] lethargic was zero processed food, zero nothing. And so then I gave it up, gained the weight back and then finally had a, an aha moment where I was like, all right, I gotta, I gotta do something else.
Carnivore JT: I came across carnivore. I started on the animal based, which is carnivore plus basically fruits and started that instantly felt better. And from a, from a physiological standpoint, I can understand it. Never thought of it, but I can understand it. And so I was like, okay, I can start doing this. I really did it haphazardly for about three months and I got really good results.
Carnivore JT: And I was like, okay, I'm going to buckle down a little bit more. And that was beginning of 23 and I've. Kind of buckled down ever since I've slowly gotten stricter and stricter and gotten rid of the animal based aspect. And so now I'm strict carnivore and it's honestly I do because I feel better. Um, it's helped a number of [00:06:00] not very serious medical conditions, like, you know, some psoriasis issues.
Carnivore JT: Um, even though it doesn't appear. So, like, some of my, my balding stopped, had a little bit of hair regrowth, just just a number of things. Um, I started sleeping better. And again, nothing crazy. Like I, I can share crazy stories from people who have, have had huge successes, but mine was just a whole bunch of little things that it just felt better.
Carnivore JT: And you know, people will often tell me, why are you doing this? Or why would you be so restrictive or it's not sustainable? And I'm like, cause honestly, I feel better. I could, I could go back to eating whatever I want. As long as I had periods of like, you know, going back to strict, you know, not eating junk food.
Carnivore JT: I could eat whatever I want, but I don't feel as good. So I don't want to, I mean, that's. I feel like that's the definition of sustainable to me.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: How does life get better? And life gets better in so many ways when you eat this [00:07:00] way,
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: 100%. So when you, when you went from eating, probably most people would say, Hey, I was eating pretty clean. And then you went to, uh, this animal base where it's like fruit and meat, meats and sweets as some people say, um, what did you cut out specifically? I just want to hear you say it so that everyone can understand why you're not eating vegetables, you know, so that they get past that moment.
Carnivore JT: That was honestly it. So the. The last little diet run I did before I started animal based was whole 30. Um, I did that for 90 days and for anybody who doesn't know whole 30, it's literally just whole foods. Um, which is what most people would think of clean eating. And the biggest difference is I replaced the lean meats, uh, chicken, ground Turkey, that, um, with higher, higher fat content beef.
Carnivore JT: And then, [00:08:00] uh, I still, you know, I eat some other meats, but beef is the majority of what I and then I cut the vegetables out and that's the one that shocks people. They're like, you don't eat vegetables. I'm like, no, I legit feel a hundred times better by not eating vegetables. And I will go round and round with people all day long.
Carnivore JT: But man, I'm telling you, when people start cutting out vegetables, they instantly feel better. Like it's not something that six months down the road, I'm going to feel better. Uh, you know, after my body adjust, no, it's like the same day that I cut vegetables out, I started feeling better. And I was like, I'm not ever doing this again.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, people are shocked when I say, Oh, I haven't had a vegetable in four years. They're like, What? But my mom always said I had to eat them. Well, who else teaches you need to eat vegetables? The government.
Carnivore JT: The government.[00:09:00]
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: They also tell you you should eat all the grains. Interesting, huh?
Carnivore JT: Yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm currently, so that's the other thing, man. When you start eating this way, you basically red pill yourself. Like you start looking into other aspects. You're like, okay. So they tell me I shouldn't eat red meat, but I feel better eating red meat.
Carnivore JT: They tell me I should eat vegetables, but I feel better without eating vegetables. And then you just go on and on and on. And then you start getting into nutritional studies and You know, you start looking into, I don't even know if you can call it a conspiracy. I'm pretty sure it's a proven fact of back in the sixties when they paid off scientists to lie about saturated fat in favor of sugar.
Carnivore JT: It's like, no, it's, you know, they told everybody saturated fats, the culprit and sugar is not a problem. And then you just realize that there's just this whole trail. Then you go, okay, well, what exactly can I look at? And it culminates with, um, I did this video [00:10:00] on, on LDL and I went crazy. Um, it's about to hit a million views on, on Instagram right now.
Carnivore JT: Wow. And there are hundreds of people in the comments defending big pharmaceutical companies like it for anybody who hasn't seen the video. It's the most like the gospel of LDL is going to kill you is a consensus statement. It's the European atherosclerosis society. And what a consensus statement is, is a group of people that are experts in the field get together, they look over all the data, they come up with all this information, and then they go, this is basically a fact and their fact is LDL causes heart disease.
Carnivore JT: And because of that, you should. Start taking these lipid lowering drugs and all I literally did was somebody cited that I went down to the conflicts of interest statement And I was like, mmm, there's seven pharmaceutical companies listed 143 times and it's this this this this That's literally the entire video [00:11:00] and the number of people who come in and go but it's the study wrong All right.
Carnivore JT: Are you suggesting that it's, that's not good science? And I'm like, wait, what you're telling me that I should start listening to what Pfizer paid these people to come up with. And I'm the one that's weird for questioning it. And just because Pfizer had a hand in financially contributing to the people whose opinion favored them the most, why does that make the data wrong?
Carnivore JT: I'm like, wow, can't be serious. Right? Like you, you literally cannot tell me And then people will just will justify it any which way. And I'm like, okay, like at some point. And then I did a follow up video and I'm like, cool. These seven companies have paid out 28 billion in fines since 2000 because, you know, they're, they care about health
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: and they're doing good things for humanity.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. Right. That's, that's all they're here for to help us. It doesn't matter if stuff is, you know, experimental or they pay people to skew data [00:12:00] or, you know, whatever it is, it's, we should trust them.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I found this article from 2012 written by the American heart association saying that if we, 2012, if we lower LDL, we increase the risk of a fib atrial fibrillation.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, how do you keep people going to the cardiologist? Well, you give them all a fib with the medication that you're required by insurance to give, to lower their risk of, of heart attacks and strokes. Yeah.
Carnivore JT: And, and what, what they've done basically is they, they came up with this arbitrary number. They're like, you know what?
Carnivore JT: A hundred and 30, uh, I forget what the actual is 99 units
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: for LDL.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. I forget what the units of measurement are for LDL. Um, they're like 130. That's the number. If you are above that, we got to get you below it. And then they come back and go, you know what? I think a hundred. And then other doctors goes, you know what, we should really try to get everybody under [00:13:00] 70.
Carnivore JT: And then your doctors come out and goes, This is what they're working on right now. And I don't think people understand they're working on gene altering technology to try to get people to zero. They want people to get to as close to an LDL of zero as possible, which is also mind blowing because LDL is not actually cholesterol.
Carnivore JT: LDL is a lipoprotein that carries cholesterol through your bloodstream. And so it's, it's just like, it's, it's no different than the American diabetic association. Okay. putting added sugar recipes on their websites. And like, it's just, at some point you have to like, stop looking at studies and go, okay, let's just think about this a little bit.
Carnivore JT: And does this make sense whatsoever? I
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: mean, it's, it's just you explaining that it's almost like people trying to outdo each other with the minimum wage, you know, it's, oh, well, let's do 10, 10 an hour. Let's do 15. I can, I can call for 50. Let's do 50 an [00:14:00] hour. Let's get zero LDL. People will die the moment they're born.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And it's,
Carnivore JT: it's one of those things that people I've realized with all the access to information, like everybody wants to live their life based on a study, right? People don't want to do carnivore because they'll go show me the longterm study. I'm like, why do I need a longterm study? And this, this is my, or, or they'll cite, uh, Sean Baker who goes, no, there are no longterm studies.
Carnivore JT: And you know what? Maybe it will kill me early and people are like, what am I going to find you a study that says everything I can find you a study that drink and Coke raises your testosterone. It's in mice, but that doesn't matter. Right. Or I can find you, I can find you a study on anything and my view on it.
Carnivore JT: And for anybody listening and what I tell everybody and I don't give medical advice. And if you listen to me for medical advice, that's your own fault. But if I can eat a certain way. And feel better. [00:15:00] And all of these issues start to resolve themselves, like inflammatory issues start to be resolved. And all of these markers go up, literally every single marker goes up.
Carnivore JT: But then you tell me that there's this one arbitrary number that you made up and that's what's going to kill me. And I'm like, okay, our bodies are a little bit smarter than that. Like I'm, I'm not buying it. That. Your body's going to go, yes, this is good. This is good. This is good. This is good. Just kidding.
Carnivore JT: That's going to kill you.
Carnivore JT: Which by the way, for anyone who doesn't know, LDL is not actually a number that's tested. Okay. It's derived from the Friedwald equation based on other things that they test, which is also funny because in certain situations. such as high HDL and low triglycerides, you can get a skewed Friedwald equation, but they don't actually test for it.
Carnivore JT: They can, [00:16:00] but it's a much more invasive process and they don't typically do blood tests for it. They just derive it from an equation.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's interesting. I didn't know that. I probably should have known that.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Like people are like, I'm going to test for it. And you're like, well, I mean, you're kind of going to test for it, but you're going to come up with an equation for it. But yeah, like, so like, that's the LDL thing for me.
Carnivore JT: Um, again, do I, do I think you should completely disregard it? No. But in the absence of like literally every other metabolic marker, it's something that you can go, okay, like I'll look at it, but should I jump on a medication for it? Like, no, I don't know. Now go look into the side effects of statins and studies that are showing people are getting dementia from it.
Carnivore JT: And you're like, at some point we got to stop trying to use drugs for everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And literally like just live how you're intended to, which they then come back [00:17:00] with. But our ancestors lived to 35. I'm like, yeah, because they died from paper cuts. Like, like you literally died from infections.
Carnivore JT: What everybody died from, because there was no penicillin, there's no antibiotics. Everybody literally died. The moment they got hurt.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Right. And I think that's the long term study. That is the 10, 000 year study to show that it worked is that. They live long enough for us to live here today to start eating garbage to destroy our health.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. Which I mean, that's like, and then that's the next thing people literally 90 percent of what I do is try and combat people talking about how eating processed food is okay.
Carnivore JT: Or it's healthy or that in literally industrial seed oils, which were literally designed as engine lubricant. That's the biggest scam of the century is how Canada got us to eat canola oil. And you're telling me that's cardio protective. There are doctors with a platform on social media that tell you [00:18:00] that seed oils are cardio protective.
Carnivore JT: I'm like, you've let it like go watch a video on how seed oils are made. There's a byproduct. They bleach it. There's bleaching clay that they use and the bleaching clay that's leftover has to be put in a landfill because it's too toxic to do anything with, but it's good for us.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But there was a thing that they said that Oreos lower LDL. As much as statins and, and that should make you go, Hmm, why is my doctor either not prescribing me Oreos or maybe my LDL shouldn't be lowered?
Carnivore JT: Yeah, that's a fascinating one. So I, I know Nick and I've talked to him, uh, multiple times about it. And for anybody who hasn't seen it, uh, Nick Norwitz is what you would call a lean mass hyper responder.
Carnivore JT: So he has is very lean and has very high. LDL. And so what he did is he ran a trial and said, okay, [00:19:00] I am hypothesizing that I can lower my LDL more by eating. I think it was like 12 Oreos a day. Don't quote me on it. That's it's in the study. I can lower it more over a couple of weeks with Oreos than I can with statins.
Carnivore JT: And he did. And he lowered his LDL significantly more eating Oreos as the only thing that he changed in his diet. And it goes to his lipid energy model, which I'm not. I don't have a hundred percent grasp on it, but yeah, that, that brings the statement. Okay. You're telling me that I can lower this arbitrary number that's going to kill me.
Carnivore JT: And you're telling me that every, like they'll come up with the statistics for every 10 points that it drops, you lower your risk of heart disease by 15%. Like it's just these crazy numbers and you go, okay, so what you're telling me is that eating Oreos is beneficial for this and thus Oreos is going to reduce my risk of heart disease.
Carnivore JT: Thanks. Like, do you realize how absurd that is? [00:20:00]
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's absolutely absurd. And, you know, I've actually written a prescription for beer, but I'll never write a prescription for Oreos. Yeah.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And for all the, for all the naysayers out there, there's a guy in ICU who was going through withdrawals and he's like, just give me a beer. And so in, in those situations, you do give them back the medication they've been taking for 20 years and all of a sudden their dementia, uh, or their, their DTs and all that go away within minutes.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Once you get them back on the medication that they've been on for years.
Carnivore JT: That's crazy. I didn't know you could actually prescribe beer.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. It was a cheap stuff. It was a tall boy to a day. Yeah. That's awesome.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But the moral of that story is, don't prescribe beer, just don't drink that much every day to where you become, your brain becomes dependent on that medication to slow it down.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. That's, that's nuts. But I mean, that's like, that's the same thing. So that's, that's like you taking that and going, you know what?
Carnivore JT: I think we should give dementia patients [00:21:00] beer. You're like, wait, what? That doesn't make sense. Literally everybody would go, well, that doesn't make sense. And you're like, but that's what the data is. Like I literally have like a documented and equals one study that it works. So why shouldn't we? And then all of a sudden people with common sense come in, they're like, Oh, we'll see that doesn't make sense.
Carnivore JT: I'm like, okay, can we apply that to the rest of nutrition, please? Just one time.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So what opened your mind to it? Like, what doctor did you start following early on, or, or what studies, or was it books, or did you just, like, brute force on your own, figure it out, or how, how did that happen? How would I open someone else's mind that I want to open? That's what I'm trying to figure out, because that is the biggest thing, is eat only meat and get healthy, and we're going against people like The Who, who put red meat, cigarettes, and uranium in the same category of carcinogen.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I mean, that's absurd!
Carnivore JT: Yeah, I mean, that's so Paul Saladino. Uh, he used [00:22:00] to be carnivore MD and then has switched, changed his stance to what you would consider animal based. Um, he gets a lot of hate, which the thing you have to realize about Saladino is Saladino lives a life that nobody else lives. Right.
Carnivore JT: He's independently wealthy. He lives in Costa Rica. He has access to literally the people that picked the fruit off of the tree two hours ago and he spends his days surfing and literally doing whatever he wants. And so when you're living that kind of lifestyle, you can get away with certain things that the average person can't.
Carnivore JT: And so he is a very big proponent of fruit, um, and raw honey, which I'm not against. I'm not anti fruit or raw honey. I just feel better when I'm not eating it. That's literally why I don't. So that's how I got, um, exposed to it. My wife sent it to me and she's like, all right, so there's this, he's a little kooky, a little [00:23:00] weird, which he is.
Carnivore JT: I'll give it to him. Like that's part of like his allure, right? He's this polarizing figure that puts eggs in his hair and all of this stuff. And you're like, that's kind of weird, but I'm, I'm intrigued. So I'm going to follow along and see what happens. And that's, that's when I started. And I'm like, okay, like I can understand the biology of, of plants having.
Carnivore JT: You know, plant defense chemicals and all this kind of stuff like that. That makes sense. Like I, I took a bunch of biology in college, um, which actually that's not a debated point. Like you can actually go and read plenty of studies where they identify. Yes, they have plant defense chemicals, but how they justify it is they, they view it as like working out.
Carnivore JT: Right. So working out puts stress on your muscles. It breaks down muscles and then your body rebuilt. They're like, that's what plant defense chemicals do. They force your body to work and get rid of them and move through it. And I'm like, I kind of see it, but then you can't tell me I'm weird for saying they have plant defense chemicals when that's literally what you just [00:24:00] said.
Carnivore JT: Like everybody looks at you and they're like, Oh, plant defense chemicals. And I'm like, that's literally what everybody says. They just have a different view on whether it's good or bad. And so I was like, okay, like anything to not be bloated all the time. And so I started, that's literally all I took from him was don't eat vegetables.
Carnivore JT: So I stopped eating vegetables and I was like, this is the best thing in the world. And so I did that for about a year. And then that's when I really started getting a little more red pilled and got a little more deeper into it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. I love Anthony Chafee. Dr. Anthony Chafee really gets into the plant defense. I mean, he, he deep dives into that stuff and it's, it's shocking. I mean, when I lived in Alaska, there was these, this phenomenon with the rabbit population that would go up and down. And as the rat population went up, there'd be more rabbits eating more plants.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And I always thought it was the predators go up and they push the population down when in fact it's the plants send a chemical to other plants that they've [00:25:00] been able to measure how it propagates. And it causes the female rabbits to, uh, uh, Abort their fetus. Now that should terrify everybody here because if they can cause a female to abort its female, its fetus, how, how do we know that can't affect humans?
Carnivore JT: Yeah. I mean, that's, and when I started looking, I'm like, okay, what are the benefits of plants, mostly vegetables, right? I'm mostly talking about vegetables and I'm like, okay, so there's some vitamins, but not like a lot, like at the end of the day, if I really, really was worried about it, I can take a pill for that.
Carnivore JT: And then fiber. It's literally all you're getting from plants and people like, Oh, well, you know, phytonutrients and antioxidants. And I'm like, yeah, I can get plenty of that and benefits of them's a little overstated. So like, okay, so fiber, once I removed [00:26:00] fiber, everything was better. Like, and the one I've heard is fiber, which, okay, it blows me.
Carnivore JT: The definition of fiber is the indigestible part of a plant. Okay. That that's red flag. That's number one. What you're telling me is. In order to be healthy, I need to consume this piece of a plant that by definition I can't digest. Okay. And then, you know, there's the fermenting and the gut microbiome and the bacteria and like, okay, maybe, but the one that really gets me is you need fiber to scrub your colon.
Carnivore JT: And I'm like, you're basically telling me I need to like swallow a scrub daddy so that my colon gets cleaned out. Like that's literally the most absurd thing I've ever heard. And if I don't, I'm going to get cancer. Like what?
Carnivore JT: Yeah. And it's yeah. And so then you, you go look at research and this is, this is where I've kind of found my niche [00:27:00] with social media is just like ripping to shreds these research studies, because I've realized that 95 percent of nutrition studies are all just absolute terrible. Like they're, they're terrible.
Carnivore JT: They're horrible. And I started with a fiber study because I can eat fiber for every seven grams of fiber you eat. Your risk of heart disease goes down by 9%. I'll say, okay, that's like a wild claim. How on earth can you correlate that? And sure enough, they go through and they collect with FFQs. And for anybody that doesn't know what FFQ is, it's a food frequency questionnaire, which is how 99.
Carnivore JT: 9 percent of all nutritional studies get their information. And it's literally, you can equate it. To pollsters getting information for the presidential election, right now you can email, but in the past it was, you mailed out this questionnaire could be anywhere from 35 questions to 200 questions. And it starts with this and they go, okay, in the last 12 months, have you [00:28:00] eaten meat?
Carnivore JT: You go? Yes. Okay. Keep going. Have you, how many times have in the. Last 12 months. Have you had a sandwich with steak in it? I don't know, like four times. Okay. On a weekly basis How many times do you eat a main dish with meat in it and it can include casseroles and stews and pot pies? Okay, and then it's like how many times have you had pizza with meat on it or a mixed dish like lasagna or pasta?
Carnivore JT: And all of those Get classified and you're like, okay, like, that's like, all right. And then they compile this data and go, we found that the people who ate 50 grams or less did this and you're like, how can we equate that? Like you literally just asked me if I had pizza and that's. That's a red meat. Like in some studies, that's considered red meat.
Carnivore JT: And you like what? And then they come up with these very specific dosages and these very specific [00:29:00] risk estimates. And in the study, they'll say, you know, we can't prove it because it's an observational study, but it's our hypothesis. And I know that there's this margin of error. So don't focus on the risk estimate, but CNN is going to run an article that says eat more fiber.
Carnivore JT: You're going to die. And then everybody believes it. Everybody cites it. Everybody treats it as gospel. And then you go, what are we doing here? Like, this is the most absurd like correlation is causation thing I've ever seen.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's incredible. Isn't it? That they can say, Oh, you ate some pizza and some lasagna and that counts as red meat. So don't eat red meat.
Carnivore JT: That's literally what it is. That's what started. This was the Harvard study on red meat and diabetes. And somebody came out and they're like, Wait a minute. Let's take a look at this.
Carnivore JT: And they pulled up the FFQ that they used and sandwiches, [00:30:00] lasagna, pizza, mixed dish, pastas, hot dogs, hamburgers. Like, it doesn't matter whether it's you made a patty or you went to McDonald's. All of those fell under the umbrella of red meat. And they're like, we have found That people that eat more of this get, I'm like, well, no shit.
Carnivore JT: Like you go find the person that goes to McDonald's, eats a two ounce patty, but then eats all the other garbage with it. And of course they're going to get diabetes. Like you, you can't be shocked that that's the result, but instead you come back and tell me that it's based on red meat.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Right. Cause they eat that.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: They're, they're eating a potato doused in bad oils. They're not eating meat.
Carnivore JT: Which not only bad oils, but it's been fried over and over and over and over again. And there's numerous studies showing that the more often you heat up and then cool down and then heat up these seed oils, the worse it gets, but it's.
Carnivore JT: [00:31:00] The red meat that's causing what
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: do you get into the statistics at all and how those can easily be manipulated if you know how to massage the numbers in the way that you want them to.
Carnivore JT: Uh, so a little bit, um, I got into a little bit with the LDL study. Um, so I have a little bit of background in, in statistics. As far as I've taken, I took a couple of statistic classes in college, but what people, people think it's impossible to they're like, well, it's data.
Carnivore JT: You can't do anything with it. I'm like, no. If I adjust my endpoints, right? So if I adjust the points of which I collect my data, I can now, because I can observe it in a trend, right? I can now do a cutoff and get it to say something that's not what it is. Um, the LDL one is a huge one. They, the end point for their graph, cause you'll see this graph.
Carnivore JT: Everybody will do this linear causation between LDL and heart disease. [00:32:00] And the end point for their data was a major cardiac event, which seems reasonable, you know, heart attack, stroke, something like that. But if you take that same data and replot it for an atherosclerotic cardiovascular death, then all of a sudden it's a, a scatterplot and it's all over the place.
Carnivore JT: And then you go, well. Okay. So maybe it's possibly linear with heart disease, but it's definitely not linear with dying from heart disease. And what's more important, like 75 percent of people that have a heart attack, have LDL within the normal range. So high LDL is not going to kill me, but it's going to give me a heart attack.
Carnivore JT: But most people that have a heart attack don't have high LDL or what exactly are you telling me is going to happen if I have high LDL and [00:33:00] most times I'm like, well, it's going to kill you. I'm like, okay, then why didn't you plot that? Because it doesn't look as good and that that's a manipulation of data is choosing my endpoints, choosing my start points, choosing what studies I keep, choosing what studies I exclude.
Carnivore JT: And all by that, I can get a result that looks better than What other
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: things have you, uh, started questioning that's really made you question even more or kind of dig in places that you never thought you should even need to dig in
Carnivore JT: literally everything now,
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: like,
Carnivore JT: like, I swear. I'm like, I'm the weird dude. That's going to hide out in the back acre of a 40 acre homestead.
Carnivore JT: Like, I'm going to become one of those dudes on like, shooter. Like, I'm going to become the Mark Wahlberg where he lives in the middle of Montana and doesn't have any contact with the outside world. Uh, [00:34:00] Because now it's all of it. Like I'm realizing that literally any recommendation that the government or a government organization, yes, the who is a government organization.
Carnivore JT: I don't care what you say. Any recommendation is based on very sketchy information. Like, or it's a collection of a couple of studies. And then every study that shows the opposite is disregarded. And so then it's like, okay, RDA has come into question, recommended dietary allowances, like how much vitamin C you're supposed to get, how much vitamin D, like, and then you go, okay, that's, they kind of came up with this arbitrary number that said, I think this is going to work for the majority of people who are semi healthy.
Carnivore JT: Let's come up with this number. And now everybody bases that off of like, oh, well, you've got, you've got to get more. Vitamin C. Why? Because you're going to get scurvy. Come on, no like, affluent person gets scurvy. Why? Well, because they eat fruits and vegetables. No, that's not it. Like, scurvy is [00:35:00] based on sailors in the 1800s who had rotting fruit and salt dried processed food.
Carnivore JT: And they found that if they gave them fresh food, they would not die. Have scurvy anymore. And so then people are like, gosh, we have to have vitamin C. Okay. Like it's just on and on and on and on. And, and literally everything. And then people turn it, they're like, Oh, you just got to question everything. And you find a holes with anything.
Carnivore JT: And I'm like, yeah, I do. I don't literally don't trust any study. I don't care if it's a pro carnivore study. There was a study that came out that said all the other studies sucked on red meat. Yeah. That guy had ties to the meat industry. I don't really trust that one either. I don't trust any of them.
Carnivore JT: Other people don't understand. I don't trust any of these studies, but I think we should be smart enough to know that how your body reacts to how you eat is probably a pretty good indication of long term health.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I think it's great. I think that's amazing. You found an article that corresponds with the way you [00:36:00] think, but you still said, no, that's, that's garbage.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I'm going to look into it. And it was garbage.
Carnivore JT: Yeah, it's. You know, and it's easy to cherry pick studies. It is. You know, especially when there's not a whole lot on your side, but at the end of the day, it's a lot easier just to be like, maybe we should all just realize that all these studies suck. Like the latest one that it might not even make it to the study.
Carnivore JT: It hasn't been peer reviewed yet, but it was presented. It's been in articles. It's headlined everywhere that intermittent fasting leads 91 percent higher chance of heart disease. Where on earth can you draw that? I don't even need to read the study. That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. You're telling me that by going a couple extra hours of not eating, I'm gonna get heart disease and not just a little bit 91%.
Carnivore JT: Like you're telling me that I have the same chance of living by running in traffic as I do intermittent [00:37:00] fasting. Like what? You've got to be kidding me. And granted, most people are like, yeah, there's problems with the study. I'm like, no kidding. Why do you even need to look at it? Are you telling me you legit have to look at this study to tell me that this is ridiculous?
Carnivore JT: I
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: mean, with that, with that logic, no human would have survived to get to us here today, because I'm sure they went a couple of days in between meals when you have to chase down your next meal.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. That's, that's the other one. People it's always the life expectancy too. It again leads me back. Like, I don't, I don't care what your views on or on how we got here.
Carnivore JT: Cause I can play this both ways. You can believe that we were created or you can believe that we evolved, but either way, there's no way we're the only species in the history of this planet that has been doing food wrong for their entire existence. Like, can you imagine if a hundred years from now, a lion all of a sudden was like, guys, we have not been meant to eat gazelles.
Carnivore JT: [00:38:00] We're in trouble. We should be living till we're 50, not 20. And then they start. Eating ground squirrels. It's like, no, like literally no other species of anything is as confused about what we're supposed to eat as we are.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Right. And not just what we're to eat, but just as confused as we are, whether it be what's in our pants or in our genome or, um, what the economy is or what we should be shoving into our bodies or a kid's bodies.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: You know, I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: What other studies have you found that, that just make you scoff at, at the investigators really, and if you do like you did with the first one, you dive into who the investigators are. You can usually see that they have some sort of, um, bias and it's usually not subtle.
Carnivore JT: Yeah, like, so I just did one [00:39:00] and it's, again, it's this hit it's social media.
Carnivore JT: Like social media is to blame, right? It's a hundred percent social media. What can I make? That's a headline that's grabbing. And gets people's attention because nobody actually looks at anything anyway. Right? We still have people that don't know how to read a new trip, like nutrition facts on the back of a box.
Carnivore JT: Like, they don't understand what it is. And it's the most in plain sight thing ever. Um, like you have little tricks like. They make calories bigger and then make everything else smaller so that you just focus on the calories and you don't worry about anything else that's in it. The ingredients are all smaller listed than, but this influencer was like, drinking diet Coke helps you lose weight better than drinking water.
Carnivore JT: And I was like, you've got shit in me. Of course they don't like to study, but I'm like, okay, let's, let's go, let's go look at it. And so I found it and it was a 52 week [00:40:00] study. And they said that the weight loss was statistically significant. However, it was not clinically significant because in order to be clinically significant, you have to have more than a 1.
Carnivore JT: 5 kilogram. change in body weight between the two groups, which they didn't over the course of an entire year. So I'm like, okay, like, so first of all, we're talking about less than three pound difference between two groups over the course of a year. And then you realize that there was no like dietary information.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. Um, there was no like active, they gave people coaching on how to lower their calories, but there was no control over anything. And the premise of it was two servings of water for one group and two servings of non nutritive sweetened beverages, just Diet Coke for the other group. And they tracked their weight loss.
Carnivore JT: I was like, you gotta be kidding me. Like, and guess [00:41:00] who funded the study? The American beverage association. And one of the conflicts of interest was the international sweetener association. And I was like, how was there? There's an international sweetener association. Like what the, like I've always joked that it's like big sugar and big meat, but no, it's literally like we are the international sweetener association.
Carnivore JT: I was like, you've got to You gotta be joking me right now.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Did you ever see, um, either was it Forks Over Knives or You Are What You Eat?
Carnivore JT: I have never watched either of them because
Carnivore JT: I've thought about doing like a video of me pretending to watch it to piss vegans off, but like vegans. So a little short story on vegans, vegans are how I got going on, on Twitter. Um, Twitter was the first platform that kind of went off for me and I got up, I just railing on vegans nonstop. [00:42:00] And so for a while I was like, you know what?
Carnivore JT: I was like, you know, I'm going to do a video of pretending that I'm going to watch. I think dominion's the most popular one for them. I don't even know. It's about some vegan propaganda. It's like, I'm going to pretend like I'm watching it and then finish the video with me eating a steak while I'm pretending to watch it.
Carnivore JT: Cause let's be honest. I'm not spending longer than two minutes actually. Yeah.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah.
Carnivore JT: Um, the latest one was not game changers. Um, the twin study, I forget what it's called. Is that what you are? Yeah. So that one, like I saw the study before it came out and they highlighted the couple points like LDL got better for the vegan group, but HDL got better for the other group.
Carnivore JT: Triglycerides got better for the other group. The vegans lost weight, but they also ate fewer [00:43:00] calories. Yeah. They also lost muscle mass and vegans equate that to the fact that I did hear this one while the other set of twins that were doing the omnivores diet, just like to work out more. I was like, you're right.
Carnivore JT: You've got to be kidding me. And then the fact that the vegans ate fewer calories was because they were more satiated eating the vegan diet. Then the omnivores, I'm like, literally nobody's ever been satiated eating plants a day in their life. Like that's a non existent term. And then, and then you went in and you realized that the people that funded it are also the people that funded game changers.
Carnivore JT: And the doctor has been getting paid by beyond meat. And you're like at some point, and they had, they had this documentary already filmed and ready to go. Before the study even came out. Wow. And I'm like, come on, like, you've got to, at some point you [00:44:00] have to look at it and go. Um, maybe something fishy is going on, but now people, if you're a vegan, that's gospel.
Carnivore JT: That's proof that's two identical twins and the vegans did better. And it's just,
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: it's a better study would have been a real head to head study would have been veganism versus carnivorism because I, I watched that unfortunately, and they gave the omnivores like this sausage. And I, A sausage is typically known for having junk in it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And like, you don't know what oils are in there. You don't know if they packed the omnivores more with seed and not oils and processed oils. Um, turkey, turkey sausage. I mean, like that's, that's not the same as beef.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. And so actually, and here's where it is and here's how, you know, that this is an issue.
Carnivore JT: We've done studies on everything. Like, and so now they're playing the ethical card and I've, at some point I'll do a video to this one, but there is [00:45:00] a, a vegan doctor and they're talking about it. They're like the longterm studies on carnivore, why are there no longterm studies? And the doctor goes, because we've decided that based on everything that we know, it would be unethical to get a group of people and feed them that diet over any length of time.
Carnivore JT: yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, if that is not the biggest cop out, how do you think you guys did studies on smoking or alcohol? Or you'll put anybody in a metabolic ward and pump them full of anything, but you will not do it with me because you know. That if it came back, that meat was even slightly more healthy than vegan, literally the entire world would crumble.
Carnivore JT: Like, can you imagine the backlash from everything from 99 percent of the store, 99 percent of the grocery store? Everybody would go, wait a minute. This is [00:46:00] actually. could be better. Like people would just go absolutely nuts.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I recently got sent this article that says that, um, 12 percent of the United States is consuming. Uh, I want to say it's like 90 percent of the beef in America. And I want to tell you, I'm proud to be part of the 12 percent with you.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. Like what's also funny is people have paired this up. Like even Sean Baker did this.
Carnivore JT: Come on, bro. Like this is a little bit of a stretch. Yeah. Uh, it pairs up nicely to the fact that a. Uh, researcher in Utah came out with a study that said 88 percent of the U. S. population is metabolically sick. And so then people are like, 88 percent are sick, 12 percent eat beef. Hmm. Is there interesting?
Carnivore JT: And then everybody goes, Oh my God, you can't do that. And I'm like, yeah, you guys do that all the time. [00:47:00] So stop.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. You can't do it, but, but it's interesting. Yes. And I've had patients. I had a patient, I had one patient go from. Having insulin to, uh, he required 80 units of insulin to keep his sugars under control.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: He would take 80 units every single day. He started carnivore, and in the first week he went down to 10 units. And recently I've had a patient who was on 30 units of insulin, and, and metformin, and two blood pressure pills. He started on a Sunday, he saw me 5, Days later, and he was, he had his blood pressure under control, not taking his pills.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: His sugar was under control, not taking any insulin nor metformin. He stopped everything in five days just by eating meat. And that like,
Carnivore JT: that's what I'm saying. And everybody goes, it's anecdotal. I'm like, okay, we'll do a study on it. Well, no. Well, why don't you guys do a study? Who's going to fund it? Who, who do you think I work for?
Carnivore JT: Like everybody's like, Oh, [00:48:00] big beef is sending you to big beef. Doesn't need to do any studies. They're doing just fine. Like big beef is also part of the problem. Like they're not the solution. Let's be real here. And so it's like, there's no money. This doesn't benefit anybody except for the U S population.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. If this comes out to be true. And so why, why would anybody fund a study? You don't just get random money from random people. You'd have to like start a go fund me. And then everybody would question the funding because it came from people that want this to succeed. So it's like, yeah, it's it. I I've talked to.
Carnivore JT: So many people who have gotten off medication by eating this way and it's everything it's everything from blood pressure medication to insulin to antidepressants to, you know, thyroid medication to IBS medication to lifelong. You know, Parkinson's medication to just all of this stuff, antibiotics, [00:49:00] the list goes on and on and on and on and on.
Carnivore JT: And the only thing anybody says that's anecdotal, I'm like, okay, cool. If I'm talking to somebody and it works for them and it's only anecdotal, they're going to be pretty happy. They're not going to give a shit if there's document that a hundred thousand people also had success because at the end of the day, it's fitness and life and nutrition is N equals one.
Carnivore JT: That's literally the only thing that matters. And so if it works for everybody, but there's no documented study. don't care.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Have you run across the people that say, well, I know my body and I, I've got to have my vegetables.
Carnivore JT: Oh yeah. Um, and my, and I've talked to a bunch of people in the, the difference is I don't think people actually understand how they feel.
Carnivore JT: Um, there's people like, I'm not bloated and I'm like, it doesn't matter. I'm willing to bet you're wrong. And you just don't know it. Like we just, that's normal. Like Thanksgiving dinner, I'm going to [00:50:00] wear my stretchy pants to Thanksgiving dinner because after I eat, I'm like, no, that's not normal. It does not matter how much food you eat.
Carnivore JT: I can eat a two pound ribeye right now and not be bloated. Like it is not the amount of food that you're eating that should make you bloated. It's what you're eating and nobody, nobody can wrap their head around it. And it's not, it's literally not until you give stuff up and you realize that you were bloated all the time.
Carnivore JT: Like it's, I go back to the bodybuilding days and it's a joke in the fitness community in general. You wake up first thing in the morning, you snap your progress pictures cause that's the leanest you're going to be all day. And the moment you even sniff water. You add five pounds and then all of a sudden you walk around like a balloon the rest of the day, hoping that you wake up the next morning feeling lean.
Carnivore JT: And so it's just, people don't understand. They don't understand that. Like I was a college athlete. I'm missing the majority of the meniscus in both my knees. [00:51:00] Um, I've been rolling out of bed since I was eight. 19 years old feeling like I got hit by a train. I played weekend double headers and roll out Monday morning and be like, gosh, like I literally feel like I got hit by a bus.
Carnivore JT: And then you roll into the training, you know, room and then you get your treatment and then you roll out and you hope that you don't hurt too bad for the next day. And I, I don't have issues anymore. Like I don't have problems with my knees. I don't have the old, like, Oh man, I got to like bend over or, you know, I have chronic shoulder problems.
Carnivore JT: I've had four surgeries. Before I got out of college and. You know, most of them are probably would indicate that I'm going to have, uh, arthritic shoulders and arthritic knees and, you know, all kinds of these issues. And I still may, like, I'm not saying I'm cured or anything, but I don't feel old. Like I don't, I feel better than when I rolled out of bed when I was 25 years old, like everything hurt when I was 25 people [00:52:00] would be like, Oh, I feel like I'm getting old.
Carnivore JT: Be like, I felt like I'm getting old since. I was 15 years old. Like this is not new for me. And now I don't, I don't have chronic inflammation. Like you shouldn't have chronic inflammation. You should be able to live normal. And if something catches up to you, it catches up to you, but we shouldn't have this every day.
Carnivore JT: I'm tired every day. I need caffeine all day long. I need, You know, a nap after I eat, I'm dragging, I get home and have no motivation. And it's just, just try the diet. Like everybody thinks we're selling something. I don't sell coaching. I don't sell anything. I sell apparel because I think it's funny. Like I have a cookbook.
Carnivore JT: If you want to, you know, spice it up a little bit, literally and figuratively, but I don't, I don't need to sell the diet. I just want people to try it like that. That's my pitch. Like try it for 30 days, cut out processed foods, cut out vegetables. If you want to eat some fruit, eat some [00:53:00] fruit, just try it for 30 days.
Carnivore JT: Like literally what is the worst that could possibly happen? Like maybe you have the keto flu for a week and you get constipated and you're like, this is dumb and I never do it again. Or you can be like the thousands and thousands of people that go, I felt really good, really good. And I'm like, Hmm, maybe that tells you something.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I had a patient once who was, he, he's, he's overweight. He's got a lot of weight to lose, but he started carnivore and he's been doing good at it. And he went to his family's, family's house, they made him some eggs in margarine. But he didn't want to be rude. So he didn't say anything. And within three bites, his knee pain, his ex Extreme knee pain came back and he's like, I will never do that again.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I will never be eating something just to be kind. I will say, I'm sorry, I can't do that.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. Like people, people look at you weird, [00:54:00] right? When you do that. And I'm like, okay, when you understand how good actually feels, any slight variation changes it. Like I don't get headaches anymore. I had chronic headaches for a long time that I could manage.
Carnivore JT: Like they weren't bad. Like took some, you know, three or four days a week, I had to pop some Tylenol or something to get rid of. I, you know, got to the chiropractor, get my neck worked on, but chronic headaches. And then I don't have them. When I get a headache now, I immediately go, my electrolytes got to be off like I got to be off on one of my, on some of my electrolytes.
Carnivore JT: I'm going to go make some electrolytes and some water, chug it. And most of the time I will feel better. And that doesn't happen very often because I know that as long as I keep my electrolytes in check, I don't have headaches and people will be like, Well, that's like, come on, like, you can't be that sensitive.
Carnivore JT: Like it's not a sensitivity issue. It's you realize that these are the things that are causing it. And you've just lived with [00:55:00] it so chronically that that's just normal for you now. And you think I'm the weird one. You, you get up like this every day and you're like, Oh man, I gotta sit. No, that's the weird part.
Carnivore JT: And so yeah, when there's foods or stuff that triggers some of those to come back, you instantly recognize it. I can go out to eat right now, eat a steak and probably within five minutes, tell you if it was cooked in something. of the seed oil variety. And it's not because I'm, I'm hypersensitive and I'm like, Oh man, I can't.
Carnivore JT: It's because I can recognize how I feel the difference between something cooked in animal fat and something cooked in a seed oil.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's almost like the alcoholic who's gone the past 10 years waking up and having a hangover and thinking that's normal. And then they finally get through the withdrawals and they stop drinking and they're like, wow, it's, it's a whole new life.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's, it's like, I can feel my body. It's, I feel good. I've never felt good before. And didn't know that I didn't feel [00:56:00] good.
Carnivore JT: Yeah. And then that same person doesn't drink alcohol for 10 years, has one drink and gets a hangover the next day. Like nobody's going to go, Oh man, you're just being overly sensitive.
Carnivore JT: Everybody's going to go. Oh, that makes sense. You've been so long without it. You're so like, this is so foreign to your body now, your body has this overreaction to it. Like it's literally the same thing. I know people that can get a hangover from one drink. So they don't drink. So, but that's okay.
Carnivore JT: Everybody says, Oh yeah, I get it. That makes sense. But if I tell you that I get inflammation from eating these foods, you go, Oh, come on, like really, you're going to live your life. Never eating carbs again. Like how many carbs whenever I want, like I will live, I'll go eat a chocolate cake right now if I want to, but I'm not going to feel good.
Carnivore JT: So why would I do that? And I will at some point in the next, however long I will probably eat an entire chocolate cake in one sitting and I'll go eat a [00:57:00] lot. I don't know if that was worth it. And then I won't do that for a long time because I'll remember how I felt.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's a big price. You'll have to pay for this.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Jason, this is great. Thank you so much. I appreciate you sharing your time with me and with my audience.
Carnivore JT: Yeah, absolutely. This is, this is great. I love doing these. Um, I get, I have a tendency to get locked into my own. Like people call it an echo chamber, like that's a bad thing. And I just assume everybody knows that you should eat meat.
Carnivore JT: And then I realized that there's a whole lot of people out there that still think you should eat lean meats and stay away from fats. And I'm like, man, so yeah, any, any time I can get on and talk with it and maybe one person will hear this and go, man, maybe I should give that a try. Sounds pretty good. It sounds too good to be true.
Carnivore JT: It might be, I don't know. That's what I tell [00:58:00] people. The last thing to end this on, it honestly doesn't matter what the long term effects are for me. And people want to go, what? Like, I, I recently, this is, it's been a few months. Um, someone I wasn't close, very close with my, one of my grandfathers, um, passed away and it was something that, you know, That took like 10 years, right?
Carnivore JT: Like it very slowly deteriorated nursing home was in bad shape for, for quite a while. And I realized that we're really good at keeping people alive. That's literally like you don't die from your first heart attack anymore. It's pretty uncommon for you to die from your first heart attack because we can keep people alive, but we don't keep people healthy.
Carnivore JT: Like, and so if you were to tell me right now that eating the way I'm going to do is going to shave 10 years off my life and I'm going to die at 70 instead of 80. But up until 70, I am going to feel great. [00:59:00] I would take this. And that might sound morbid or whatever, but I absolutely do not want to be 70 years old and completely dependent on other people because I can't stand upright.
Carnivore JT: It's so deep. It sounds terrible, but I feel great until I stop feeling great. I'm going to keep eating this way. And you know what? If I go out a few years earlier, And I don't live a miserable existence for a few extra years. That's totally fine with me.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Where can we find you? Where can we get your merchandise, your book and your shirts?
Carnivore JT: Uh, so I have a website, theinnercarnivore. com. It's also the name of my podcast. Uh, you can find me on pretty much every social media platform at carnivoreJT. Uh, Twitter's the only one it's at carnivore underscore JT, but carnivore JT is a, you type that into, into a search and, and I'll pop up on a, on a social media platform.[01:00:00]
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing, sharing your time with us. I appreciate it.
Carnivore JT: Absolutely. Thanks for having me on.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: All right. God bless.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just a reminder for everyone out there. The duty uniform of the day, the full armor of God. Let's all make courage more contagious t
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