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124. Dr. Liester and how Ketamine works
Today I talk with Dr. Mitchell Liester. He talks about treating issues like depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, ADHD, boarder line personalty disorder with ketamine. His results are amazing!
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124. Dr. Liester
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Dr. Mitchell Liester: [00:00:00] I have a patient with borderline personality disorder, which historically is extremely difficult to treat. There are no medications for it. This poor woman had suffered with depression and daily suicidal ideation for over 25 years. She tried to kill herself twice, once by overdosing on medication, and the second time she almost succeeded.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She walked in front of a semi truck on the interstate, survived with a traumatic brain injury, multiple fractures of shoulder, arms, ribs, in the hospital for a few weeks. Just five days and got out. We decided to try this, to see if it would work for her and Sam, she's had a remarkable recovery. In fact, we're just about to.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, submit a case study to a journal medical journal to report about this because her response was dramatic. Within nine days, she called me and said, Oh, my God, I've never felt like this before. I hope this last when she came back later. Um, she was her depression was improving markedly. Her relationships were improving.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And by the time she'd gone out for a few months, her depression was in remission. She had no more suicidal thoughts. She was working two jobs. Her daughter, who previously wouldn't even talk to her for a couple of years because her mother was too [00:01:00] emotional and stable, now was calling her for advice. And she's made a really a hundred percent turnaround.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Her depression's in remission. Her, she no longer meets criteria for borderline personality disorder either.
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Dr. Sam Sigoloff: If you've noticed I've been wearing this t shirt for a few episodes now, I have them available on eBay. Check out the links below to get your size.
Nurse Kelly: Welcome to After Hours with Dr. Sigoloff. On this podcast, you'll be encouraged to question everything.
And to have the courage to stand for the truth.
And now, to your host, Dr. Sigoloff.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I first [00:03:00] want to thank you all for joining me and give a shout out to all of my Patreon supporters. We've got 2Tough giving 30 a month. We have The Anonymous Family Donor giving 20. 20. We have The Plandemic Reprimando level at 17. 76 with Tai. Charles, Tinfoil, Stanley, Dr.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Anna, Frank, Brian, Shell, Brantley, Gary, and Sharon. We have the 10 Self Made Level with Kevin and Patton Bev. We have the Refined Not Burned at 5 a month with Linda, Emi, Joe, and Chris. PJ, Rebecca, Marcus, Elizabeth, Dawn, Ken, Rick, Mary, and Amanda. We have Addison Mulder giving 3 a month and Frank giving 1. 50 a month.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And then we have the Courageous Contagious with 1 a month with Jay, Spessnasty, Darrell, Susan, BB King, Caleb. Thank you so much for supporting, uh, me with my endeavors with this show. Uh, please be sure and check out mycleanbeef. com slash after hours. That's mycleanbeef. com slash after hours. Um, So [00:04:00] today our guest, very special man, met Dr. Mitch Leister at the FLCCC conference. Now, we just happened to sit at the same table and it was a perfect fit, I couldn't have sat at a better table. Uh, we had some interesting conversations, we had common interests, uh, but Dr. Mitch, great to see you again. How have things been with you?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Doing very well, Sam.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Thanks. It's great to see you, too. Thanks for inviting me to your program.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, you do the, you're a psychiatrist, correct?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Yes, I am. Yeah, I'm a clinical psychiatrist, uh, an associate. I'm an assistant clinical professor in psychiatry at the University of Colorado School of Medicine as well.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And you have a treatment plan or a treatment regimen that you've discovered over the last few years that helps with certain specific disease processes.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Can you get into that a bit and kind of explain what that is and some of the results that you've seen with that?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Sure Sam, I'm happy to and I also have a slide deck [00:05:00] PowerPoint if that will help explain things too. Yeah. So briefly the treatment we're using is a medicine called Uh huh. Do you want to get the slide deck set up?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Would it be good to share that now? Yeah. Yeah. I can, uh, let me see if I can get it set up for you. Okay, are you able to see that? What I've got here is a PowerPoint presentation to explain this topic of low dose sublingual ketamine. On the first slide, it's just a title slide. The second slide, Sam, is just a disclaimer one that we have to put in there because this is a, uh, Off label use for ketamine just explains that, uh, not recommending people go out and try this on their own.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They should consult with their doctor. But the real point behind this topic is that a lot of people in this country are suffering with depression. On the third slide, you see that there are over 17 million adults and almost 2 million kids are being diagnosed with depression. So it's a real problem and it's growing every day, probably for a lot of different reasons, including COVID, post COVID, et cetera.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And the fourth slide explains that a lot of the traditional medicines we've used for treating depression and [00:06:00] other psychiatric diseases just often don't work. Leaves people feeling depressed, uh, despite the treatment. In fact, on the fifth slide, you see that, uh, as many as a third, close to a third of people who have depression are diagnosed with what's called treatment resistant depression, which means they failed at least two trials of conventional antidepressants.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They just haven't been effective, which leaves these people suffering. And even the people that do respond sometimes don't have a very good response. Thanks. And not only that, but on the sixth slide it talks about how these medicines also cause, the conventional medicines cause a lot of side effects. On the next slide, the 7th, you see that one major class of antidepressants called SSRIs have a lot of side effects.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They cause sexual dysfunction, they can cause drowsiness, weight gain, etc. Which means a lot of people just don't even want to take these medicines, and sometimes the side effects are worse than the benefits for some people. So we've discovered an alternative on the 8th slide, which is a medicine called ketamine.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And ketamine is a very interesting medicine that we'll talk about briefly, but I want Just want to mention that it's an alternative. Some of these conventional antidepressants. Um, [00:07:00] and in fact, on the next slide, you can see what we're prescribing for people. These little squares of orally dissolving ketamine called trochees, T R O C H E, and these ketamine trochees are very low dose, and they have a lot fewer side effects.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: then we see with some of the conventional antidepressants, so not only are they safe, they're effective, and they're a lot cheaper as well. Next slide, slide 10, you can see that, uh, ketamine does not have some of these side effects the SSRIs have. It doesn't cause sexual dysfunction, it doesn't cause weight gain, it doesn't cause dry mouth, fatigue, or some of the shaking you can get with some of the conventional antidepressants.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It doesn't mean ketamine is safe for everybody, and you should just take it as much as you want. There is a problem with recreational use. On the next slide, the 11th slide, you see a picture of Matthew Perry, who was in the news, unfortunately, recently, after he died. Um, the press made it sound like it was because he took ketamine, but, uh, they actually had his autopsy posted online, and I took a look at it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Turns out he did have a very high level of ketamine in his system, and it was reported that he was using intravenous ketamine as a treatment for depression, [00:08:00] but the level he had in his bloodstream was much higher than what he would have received from those intravenous treatments. So, in fact, he was probably using recreationally on top of it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And that wasn't what killed him, though. What happened is he apparently drowned in his, I can't remember if it was a pool or a hot tub, so he probably fell asleep and drowned, but the press made it out to sound like he was, um, the ketamine that killed him, which wasn't the case. Next slide, slide 12, it talks about the advantages of The sublingual form, under the tongue form, versus other ways that ketamine is being used.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It is being used intravenously, it's even being used intranasally to treat depression, but the under the tongue has much fewer side effects, it's not as expensive, and the benefits last, whereas with the IV or the sub, uh, intranasal, once you stop the treatment, the symptoms come back. So, in the 13th slide, you see, uh, the first, uh, description of how ketamine came into existence, and it was an interesting story.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Ketamine was first synthesized in the 1960s, uh, by some scientists at Park Davis, uh, pharmaceutical company. And they were looking for a general anesthetic to put people to sleep for surgery, because the [00:09:00] one they were using had some real problems. It was called Fincyclidine, and when they anesthetized people for surgery, then they woke up, they would be very combative, agitated.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And the other name for Fincyclidine is called PCP, or on the street it's called angel dust. And at one point that was being used as a general anesthetic, but it didn't work well. So these scientists came up with an alternative, it's a It's a slightly modified form and analog and it's called ketamine. So that was when it was first discovered.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It was first approved by the FDA in 1970 as a general anesthetic and has been used since then as an anesthetic is still used today. Um, but a long, a little bit later in 2000, on the next slide, slide 14, you see that some researchers at Yale back in 2000 discovered that if they give lower doses of ketamine, a sub anesthetic dose.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It actually provided rapid antidepressant effects. Sometimes people within hours or within days would report improvement in their depression. So as a result of that, ketamine clinics have popped up all over the country now where people can go in and get an intravenous infusion of ketamine and their depression rapidly improves.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: But there are some problems with that. First of [00:10:00] all, it's very expensive. Um, each infusion can run anywhere from 250 to 1, 000. Not so much for the medicine, but for the time of the physician or nurse monitoring the treatment. Um, people often have sort of a psychedelic like effect that they don't like. Um, and then again, once the infusion stopped, the symptoms can come back.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, so on the next slide, slide 15, you see that, uh, uh, over time they discovered that, um, sublingual ketamine could also be used, um, and it had some real advantages. This is a study from, uh, 2013 showing that, uh, just very low doses, as low as 10 milligrams a day under the tongue, every two to seven days even.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Improved depression over three fourths of the patients who used it in both unipolar and bipolar depressions was a real breakthrough. But that study just kind of was ignored for a long time. Everybody just, uh, just didn't even look at it. There's not a lot of money to be made in sublingual ketamine, so I think, unfortunately, there wasn't much of a profit motive.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And that kind of held back the research. Uh, next slide, slide 16, shows that, uh, just a few years ago, some researchers [00:11:00] down in Brazil discovered that ketamine also occurs in nature. They were looking for treatments for parasites and came upon this fungus. Next slide, please. That would kill parasites. They took the fungus back to the lab to see what it was making.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It turns out it was making ketamine. So you can actually find ketamine in nature if you know where to look. So one of the big questions, the next slide, 17, is how does this work? And how does ketamine treat depression? It's an anesthetic that's used for other things. Sometimes doctors prescribe it for pain management as well.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: But how does it work for depression? Well, slide 18 shows it actually promotes neural regeneration or it stimulates the nervous system to grow and repair. And it does this in slide 19 by increasing a protein that we have in our body and in our brain called BDNF. It stands for Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So what is this magic protein that stimulates our brain to grow? Slide 20 shows, uh, it's again B, D, and F, and the next slide, 21, shows a picture from some research at, uh, back at Yale when they took a picture in electron microscope of neurons [00:12:00] before and after ketamine. And what you can see in this picture is that, uh, the top, uh, Red line is a, a nerve or a nerve cell neuron from a rat that shows a couple little bumps on it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: These are called bulbs or spikes. And these bulb or spikes grow out and connect with bulb or spikes on other neurons and create connections called synapses. And the bottom picture shows that after ketamine treatment, these, uh, bulbs or spikes grew, uh, or much, quite a few more of them. And that was because of the BDNF.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It actually stimulates the nerve cells to produce new, uh, synapses. There's one other interesting thing about ketamine, on the next slide, 22. In late, uh, 2022, some researchers at MIT wrote a paper about something called silent synapses. And these are connections in the brain that are dormant, and they're just asleep.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They're not functioning. They're missing a protein that they need to turn them on. And they say as many as a third of the connections or synapse in our brain may be these dormant or silent synapses. And it turns out the protein that's needed to turn them on is something that ketamine triggers the [00:13:00] production of.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So ketamine may be actually waking up our brain in ways that hadn't been predicted before. And just a few more slides. Slide 23 shows that the Response to ketamine varies with the dose. At low doses, you don't see much response, but as you increase the dose, the body starts producing more of this BDNF, which I think of as miracle growth for the brain.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Stimulates the growth of the nerve cells, new nerve cells are produced, new connections are produced. But if you keep increasing the dose, you actually do more harm than good. If you go too high, The brain stops producing BDNF, you actually get a damage to the nerve cells, something called excitotoxicity.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And so excessive use of ketamine is not a wise choice. You want to keep the dose down. The next slide, 24, just explains that, um, with ketamine, you start seeing improvement in depression. Um, and with the sublingual ketamine, it's slow, uh, slower than the IV, but it's more long lasting. We're seeing really some dramatic changes in people who have not responded to antidepressants for decades.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And after sometimes a month or two of this, under the Tunketamine, they're going into remission, they're [00:14:00] feeling markedly improved, and those benefits last, and they continue to grow, so that even though in the first month or two people may improve in terms of their depression, over time other things improve.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Their anxiety gets better, uh, they sleep better, their PTSD improves, their ADHD improves, um, their obsessive compulsive disorder improves, and it just keeps going. After years or so, we're even seeing some pro cognitive effects. People's memory is improving, their ability to learn improves, um, people are reporting their intuition improves.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's just seeing some really remarkable results. And on the next slide, last slide actually, um, this is a poster, a copy of a poster we presented the World Psychiatric Congress last year in Vienna, Austria. showing our results with the first 49 patients we treated with ketamine. It's a little bit complex, but it just shows that 96 percent of the people who we treated with this sublingual ketamine improved to varying degrees.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: About a third got about 50 percent better, about a third got 50 75 percent better, and then about 25 percent went into total remission, no more depression. And only 4 [00:15:00] percent of the people showed no response. And this slide also includes the protocol we used and some possible ways that it works. So, what we're hoping is that by putting this information out there, some other doctors will learn about it and start using it as well.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We do have doctors now in Phoenix that we know, some colleagues in Tucson as well as Denver. They're trying this and having also remarkable results as they're starting to spread the word as well. So, that's the message I wanted to pass on to folks that are interested is there's a new treatment for not just psychiatry, uh, And, so, based disorders like depression, anxiety.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We're also seeing some improvement in neurologic disorders. People are spontaneously reporting improvement in peripheral neuropathy. We're also trying in a patient with ALS. Also have seen my colleague here in Carl Springs, Dr. Rachel Wilkinson has had some success reversing dementia in some patients and also seeing some evidence of brain regrowth after sustained treatment with this ketamine.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: This is incredible. This is, this seems like it's a miracle that you have found that you've helped discover. [00:16:00]
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, you know, when it first came out, I was very skeptical, to be honest with you, it sounded a little too good to be true, but when my colleague, Dr. Wilkinson said, you know, Mitch, you know, you won't believe the results with this, I thought, yeah, I've heard that before, but I know her, I've known her for a while and trust her, so I decided to try it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And it was kind of funny because in the beginning she said, you're going to see results, just tell people to be patient. And so people would come back after a month or two in the medicine and they were 50 percent better. And I would send her a text in the middle of the day, say, Rachel, I can't believe the results.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She, this is amazing. I've never seen anything like this. And she'd text me back and say, Mitch, calm down. It's going to get better. And sure enough, patients would come back a month or two later, they'd be 75 percent improved. And I texted her again and said, Rachel, I don't believe the results. This is amazing.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She texted me back in and said, Mitch, calm down. It's going to get better. I said, how can they get better than this? She said, give it a few more months. People will be in remission. And she was right. And I had to text her back after that and say, I apologize for doubting you. I didn't. She said, I didn't believe in the beginning either.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She said, I didn't think this was going to be as good as [00:17:00] it is. But she had been prescribing it at that point for two and a half years, had over 200 patients on it. And again, in the beginning, I thought, why would any doctor have 200 patients on this new treatment? Well, Sam, I'm just about there now. I think I've got about 180 patients on it because they're doing so well.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, I don't want to deny people the opportunity to get better.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow, this is incredible. So go through a list of some of the things that you've personally seen it work better and and your colleague has seen it improve. So you mentioned OCD, PTSD, depression, ADHD.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Yes, uh, it's, it's really, I have a patient with borderline personality disorder, which historically is extremely difficult to treat.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: There are no medications for it. This poor woman had suffered with depression and daily suicidal ideation for over 25 years, just miserable and no medicines were helping. She tried to kill herself twice, once by overdosing on medication, and the second time she almost succeeded. She walked in front of a semi truck on the interstate.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And, uh, survived with a traumatic [00:18:00] brain injury, multiple fractures of shoulder, arms, ribs. She was in bad shape. They took her to the ICU. She's in the hospital for just five days and got out. We decided to try this to see if it would work for her. And Sam, she's had a remarkable recovery. In fact, we're just about to Um, submit a case study to a journal medical journal to report about this because her response was dramatic within nine days.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She called me and said, Oh, my God, I've never felt like this before. I hope this last when she came back later. Um, she was her depression was improving markedly. Her relationships were improving. And by the time she'd gone out for a few months, her depression was in remission. She had no more suicidal thoughts.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She was working two jobs. Her daughter, who previously wouldn't even talk to her for a couple of years because her mother was too emotionally unstable, now was calling her for advice. And she's made a really 100 percent turnaround. Her depression's in remission. She no longer meets criteria for borderline personality disorder either.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow! There's nothing for borderline personality disorder. Those people live this terrible self destructive life for the rest of their life. [00:19:00] And, you know, explosion of relationships over and over and over and, and it's changed. She's no longer meets criteria. That's incredible.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Sam, it's, it's one of the most amazing things I've been practicing for almost 40 years now.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I've never seen anything like it. And the joy now in my practice is seeing people coming in who are doing so much better. For so many different causes. Yes. Yes, about other other conditions. So in psychiatry is also working for people to struggle with bipolar disorder, which can be difficult to treat partly because antidepressants can make the condition worse by triggering what are called manic episodes.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: The ketamine doesn't do that. So it's providing mood stabilization as well as treating their depression. So they're improving. Even they're improving so much, Sam, that a lot of the people we're treating now are getting off their conventional medications. They don't need antidepressants after a while.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They don't need ADHD medicines. They don't need medicines for PTSD or OCD or ADHD. Uh, and so that's remarkable to see after maybe a year or two. And then Dr. Wilkinson, who's been now prescribing for over four years, [00:20:00] tells me that some patients, after about three years, Don't even need ketamine anymore. So it's as if it's healed their brains and they have remained stable for up to six months so far, even without ketamine, no medication whatsoever.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So we're really excited about the potential to help people with this medicine.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, kind of walk me through like a treatment regimen, how it works, how it looks from your side and then what the patient typically sees during that, that timeframe.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Absolutely. So, we, uh, Dr. Wilkinson developed a protocol, I call it the Wilkinson protocol because she's the one that was smart enough to come up with it and we're using it as a starting point.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: What we do is we have people start with just 25 milligrams of ketamine, they put it under their tongue at bedtime. Uh, and the reason for that is some people feel a little bit either, uh, mildly tipsy, some people describe it as like they've had a glass of wine. Or a little bit mildly dizzy if they get up and walk around.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So if they lay down at bedtime, they just fall asleep. And that if they do experience that mild tipsy feeling, uh, it's very short lived. Usually between five minutes and an hour. Some people find it pleasant. They kind of like it. They just relax and fall asleep. [00:21:00] Some people don't even feel it. And so they take 25 milligrams under their tongue every third night for four doses.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: After that, they take 25 milligrams under their tongue every other night for four doses, and then they increase to 25 milligrams every night. Now, we give it some time, usually within, uh, one to four weeks of that dose, people start noticing improvement. It's gradual. Um, if they don't respond, then we can increase the dose.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And in some occasion, uh, some instances, that 25 milligrams is a little too strong for people, so we've actually had people who've cut back their dose. So the range we're finding that's effective can be anywhere from, um, Uh, the lowest I have anybody on is 6 mg and the lady is taking it every third day, only twice a week and she's doing marvelously.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And there are some people that take doses as high as 150 mg to 175 mg and they do well at that dose. So each individual responds differently, so we just start low, go slow until we find a dose that works optimally for people and then we stay at that dose because the benefits keep accruing. For a year, there are even additional benefits the second year, and Dr.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Wilkinson tells me [00:22:00] even more benefits the third year. So we don't have to keep increasing the dose, we just keep people at a steady state dose.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So when you say the third year, the third year of the same treatment dosage?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Correct, yes. In fact, some people, she tells me, I've only been prescribing this now for a little over a year, maybe a year and a quarter.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She's been doing it for four years. And says that some people after about that third year start finding they just don't need the ketamines as much, starts cutting back on the dose. And like I said, some people wean off of it, just don't need any medicine any longer. And it kind of makes sense, Sam, that, you know, what we're seeing is a lot of these conditions we've been treating for years, we thought were due to chemical imbalances in the brain.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's starting to look like it's more likely due to inflammation in the brain, which could be caused by a variety of things, systemic inflammation, um, autoimmune disorder, stress, a lot of things can cause inflammation in the brain, what's called neuroinflammation, and the ketamine repairs that, so instead of treating symptoms, we're really getting to the root cause of their conditions, we believe, and it's making a huge difference for people.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's amazing. I love getting to the root cause of things. And one thing that, uh, I'm a huge advocate and love [00:23:00] talking about is diet and how that gets to the root cause of even brain inflammation.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, and that's interesting you mention that, Sam, because I just recently was at a conference where they talked about dietary interventions for not only psychiatric disorders, but medical disorders.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And they were reporting through some dietary changes, some very similar results to what we're seeing. Even the ability to get patients with severe psychiatric disorders off their medications. Um, Dr. Chris Palmer from Harvard was talking about a patient with chronic schizophrenia for 40 years, who after dietary changes was able to get off her medication and remain symptom free for the next 15 years of her life.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And, uh, I was curious about that. I mean, patient, uh, patient after patient was being described to with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and depression. Was able to improve, um, with dietary changes very similar to what we're seeing with ketamine. So I reached out to Dr. Wilkinson, my colleague about this, and I said, how is this possible that we're getting similar results?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We found out that certain types of dietary changes, particularly low carb [00:24:00] diets, can also release BDNF in the brain, the same sort of miracle grow product that stimulates the brain cells to grow. So it looks like we probably found two different pathways that converge at healing and repairing the brain, and not just the brain, but the remainder of the body as well.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Now, I want to mention that if anybody wants to learn more about Dr. Chris Palmer, he was recently on a podcast with Dr. Jordan Peterson, and he talks about that case who had, um, that patient who had, was it, um, um, schizotypal or, or some, A personality disorder and completely reverse their disease just by changing their, their eating habits, doing extremely low carb.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I think they were doing carnivore.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I believe it. And I think Sam, the problem is, as you know, most of us physicians got little or no training about nutrition in medical school. And so I got zero, but not one minute. And so really wasn't aware of the potential benefits. I'm fortunate that my oldest daughter is a registered dietitian.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's been trying to educate me for a long time about these benefits. And. I was a little skeptical in the beginning, but now I'm seeing it. She's reversing all kinds of medical [00:25:00] conditions. Patients with diabetes, um, are improving. Some of my patients now that she works with are having significant improvement in their mental health.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So I think, yes, I think dietary interventions are hugely important and we're excited about, we're starting to combine dietary interventions with ketamine to try to, Uh, boost the response people are getting. So, uh, we're starting to publish some papers, hopefully very soon about this, uh, and I hope we'll have more to publish in the future, and hopefully we can stimulate other people to do some research as well.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: One thing you mentioned in your, in your, uh, presentation, you said excessive use. When you have excessive use, the return becomes less and actually can be seemingly harmful. Um, by excessive use, do you mean dosage at one time or dosage, same dosage over time? So like same dosage every day for multiple days in a row.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Yeah, great question. So there are two things that could happen with higher doses of ketamine. The first thing is you actually shut off production of BDNF instead of increasing it. Um, if you go to too high of a dose, single dose, [00:26:00] you don't get any BDNF release. That's one problem. The other is something called excitotoxicity, which is a process that occurs.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: When you have too much of a, um, amino acid, that's also a neurotransmitter called glutamate in the system. And in the brain, if you have too much glutamate, it damages neurons. It kills them. And, uh, ketamine does work on glutamate. So stimulating a little bit of it can be helpful, but too much is not good.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's like what we learned in medical school. The only difference between a medicine that poisons the dose. And that's certainly true with ketamine. So you can actually reduce healing of the brain, If you go to higher, but if you go excessively high, you can actually damage the brain. And, uh, that's where people need to be careful to using it recreationally, because if they go too high, they're going to actually do some damage.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And when you say recreationally in those high doses, are those the kind of doses that drug users and abusers, when they call keyhole, when they just kind of disappear into nothingness, is that the kind of high dosage that you're talking about?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Probably. Yeah. At higher doses than we're using, ketamine has very [00:27:00] different effects.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, again, the low doses, it hardly has any. perceptible effects on consciousness is very mild if any. As you go up on the dose like with the IV doses, which are still safe, and that's about usually a half a milligram per kilogram is the typical dose that they infuse over about 40 minutes intravenously, people have psychedelic like experiences, but they're not doing damage to their brain.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: But unfortunately, recreationally, some people go much higher using ketamine. And when they do that, yes, they go into the K hole, the keyhole, where they have not only profound changes in consciousness, but again, sometimes they have Neurotoxic changes their brains as well, and that's not a good thing.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, kind of walk me through the patient experience and, and like how they take the medication. Because you, you mentioned those little, they look like little pieces of paper. Or is it a liquid, or how does that work from their perspective? And then
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Sure. Yeah, sure, Sam. It's, it's a gelatinous like substance.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: That the pharmacy makes it has to be made at a [00:28:00] compounding pharmacy, the average pharmacy or local pharmacy won't have this. It doesn't come from pharmaceutical companies this way. It has to be made and we have a wonderful pharmacist here in Colorado Springs that knows how to make it. And he's been doing it for several years now.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's spreading. They're also pharmacists. We work with pharmacies in other. Um, cities around Colorado, and I know there's a friend of mine is a compounding pharmacist in Mesa, Arizona, and also makes sublingual ketamine, these ketamine trochees. So, what people do when they get them, each trochee is typically, that we make, is 100 milligrams.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So, the patient cuts it in fourths, and just puts a quarter of that little square under their tongue. And, uh, what people describe oftentimes initially is the taste is unpleasant, it's got a bit of a bitter taste. So the pharmacies will often put a flavoring in it. Sometimes they use wintergreen, I've had patients have bubblegum flavored or uh, cherry marshmallow, candy, cotton candy, all, watermelon, all kinds of flavors try to cut that bitter taste.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: But it's not bad enough that anybody stopped the medicine because of the bitterness. Some people say it's not bad at all and they use it unflavored. And once it's under their tongue, um, people [00:29:00] start feeling relaxed and calm typically. If they feel anything, some people feel nothing and that calm, relaxed feeling helps some people just fall asleep.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Occasionally, maybe less than 10 percent of the time, some people have an opposite reaction where they feel energized like they've had a cup of coffee. If that happens, we have two options. We can either cut down the dose to relieve that or some people take it earlier in the day instead of at bedtime. If they do that, I just ask them not to drive for an hour.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: The reason being that if they do feel that sort of tipsy feeling, we don't don't want them on the road and that pass is usually Um, and less than an hour. And, uh, that tipsy feeling, like I said, for some people is very pleasant. Um, if people get up and go to the bathroom during the night, they can, they, they feel a little lightheaded or dizzy, but nobody's hurt themselves or fallen from that.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, and then that wears off within an hour and the next morning people feel nothing. It has a very short half life, um, which means it's out of our system after taking it sublingually probably within about 10 hours or so. So if you take it at night by the time you wake up the morning the medicine's out of your system and you just go on about your normal day.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And the biggest challenge for people is [00:30:00] to be patient because most of the time for the first four to six weeks people feel nothing and then very gradually once the medicine starts working they start noticing just gradual improvement. They say that I'm feeling a little bit Uh, less depressed or a little less anxious or I'm sleeping a little better.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, and then that gets progressively worse. There are some ups and downs over time, but the gradual improvement is pretty noticeable. I sometimes tell people it's like watching your own hair grow from day to day. You don't see any change, but week to week or month to month, you know when the hair is getting longer.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And that's what people describe with the medicine. There are some fast responders. I had one lady that went from severe depression. Um, to no depression within one month, but that's unusual. Usually that takes two or three, maybe even four months. Um, but people do notice gradual improvement. And then it's interesting because people will start adding additional comments about additional observations they've made.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: For example, I've heard the word resilient more in the last year than I've heard in my whole career. People will come in and say, I'm just more resilient. I can just handle things better. The things that used to [00:31:00] bother me just don't bother me as much anymore. And people are describing some really remarkable changes, um, past traumas, uh, things that have happened to them in their childhood or when they were younger, just that they used to bother them still that doesn't bother them anymore.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They said, you know, I've, I've dealt with it. I've thought about it. It just doesn't have the same impact on me anymore. People are even healing relationships that have been broken for decades. Um, and this resiliency is really amazing. And it's allows people sometimes. Yeah. To, um, also think creatively and problem solve.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, and it doesn't mean people are more passive people. Sometimes they're getting out of jobs that weren't working for them because they say, I just don't have to put up with that or tolerate it anymore. I was before I felt like I just had to hang in there. Now I don't feel that way anymore. So people are finding it easier to make constructive changes in their life as well.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: That's kind of fun to hear. And then sometimes we're even hearing spontaneous reports of improvement neurologic conditions. One of the most common is peripheral neuropathy. I must have had seven or eight patients just voluntarily say, That's great. Dr. Leaster, I don't know, I not only feel less [00:32:00] depressed, but my peripheral neuropathy pain is either markedly reduced or it's gone.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And not everybody experiences that, but a high percentage of people do. I'm also hearing people report their fibromyalgia is better now. Um, and people are even saying, you know, I think it's because I'm emotionally more stable. I don't have the, I don't feel the stress I felt before. My fibromyalgia pain is just improving.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's really fun to hear all the different things that people come in describing, all the different kinds of improvement. I had one gentleman who had, um, post COVID symptoms. He lost his smell and taste and had tinnitus ringing in his ears for seven months. We started him on ketamine for, uh, depression.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And his tinnitus went away quickly and his taste and smell are now are starting to return finally, um, for the first time. So, we're just getting a lot of, uh, reports of additional kinds of benefits. I'll tell you one other. My sister even, uh, was started on it. She has a neurologic condition, a pain disorder called CRPS, complex regional pain syndrome.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And she also had damage to the ulnar nerve in her left arm from a car accident 30 years [00:33:00] ago. So, her doctor put her on the ketamine because it's reported to help with CRPS. But what she didn't expect was that the Damaged her left ulnar nerve, um, which caused her left pinky finger and ring finger to be numb for 30 years, suddenly got better too.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And she can now feel those fingers for the first time in 30 years after taking ketamine. We didn't expect that. And I keep checking with her. Can you still feel those fingers? And she can, it's been months now and it's still the same.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: How long on treatment before she could feel those, that, that
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I don't remember exactly how many months, but it was a, it was a few months within maybe two or three months.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: She started noticing improvement and also her CRPS, she, her feet had been numb and they're no longer numb after treatment with the ketamine.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow. I mean, just everything that you're mentioning, I can, I can picture a patient in my head that I think might benefit from this because we all, So, you know, if, if you're in this profession, we all have patients that are, have these, these incurable problems.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And it's just so heartbreaking that we can't offer anything.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Exactly. So, I mean, that's what's made this so [00:34:00] much fun for me is that people that used to be considered treatment resistant, there was no hope for them. Now there's not only hope, but significant improvement. Um, And I think that's why it's spreading so fast.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And when I've told some of my colleagues about it at first, they were very skeptical, but I, as I was in the beginning, but it's so much fun. I just got a call from a psychiatrist friend in Denver last week. She's saying, Mitch, I have to talk to you. I've been using your sublingual ketamine protocol. It's working great.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Can we talk? I said, yes. So we got on the phone and she was describing how much improvement she's seeing. Um, I also have a friend who's a, uh, a doctor practicing position in Mesa, Arizona. He says the same thing. I have one other colleague here locally in Colorado Springs. He's a neuro oncologist, a very, very bright neuro oncologist.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: When I first told him about this, he was very skeptical and said, show me the studies. So I did. I sent him several studies showing this, how this worked. He read them. He said, you know, this looks like it might work. I think I'll try it. And when I saw him the next time, a month or two later, he said, Mitch, he said, it's working great.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He said, a lot of my patients responding, he said, the biggest problem I'm having those when I try to talk to my colleagues, the other [00:35:00] neurologists, they don't know anything about it. They don't understand it. And they won't take the time to read the papers. He said, they're just not considering the possibility.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So he said, I'm having a hard time convincing my. Colleagues to try this piece that I'm having great success with it. So I think that's the challenge, Sam, is that most physicians aren't yet aware of this, they don't understand it. And so they're a little hesitant to try it, but I'm hoping that through your podcast, thank you.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: And through other recent, um, podcasts we're doing and papers we're writing that hopefully physicians will become more familiar with this treatment and begin using it themselves because any physician. Can prescribe ketamine as long as they have a DEA license. It's what's called a schedule 3 medicine. So it's lower on the scheduling than even something like Adderall or many narcotics.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So it's easy to prescribe. You just need to find a compounding, compounding pharmacist that will make it. And the cost is also important. I should mention that I talked about earlier how these Intravenous infusions can run thousands of dollars for people over time, which is just cost prohibitive for a lot of people.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: The ketamine trophies, um, they, [00:36:00] when they make the 30 little squares, it's approximately $60, and if people stay on just the low dose, 25 milligrams, that will last 'em four months. So we're talking maybe $15 a month. And even if they increase their dose, it's typically not more than maybe $30 a month. So it's very affordable for people.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's incredibly affordable compared to, you know, 600 for an IV session that you do maybe three or four of those a week for six weeks.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Exactly. So it's less expensive, fewer side effects and lasting benefits over time, which is really exciting. So I, I think in the going forward in the future, I think this will probably become the future or the treatment of choice for many disorders once people learn about it. And if, you know, further studies confirm our results, but uh, It's, it's really remarkable and it's, it's just such a joy to see people improving.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Have you seen any, anybody with brain injuries, like let's say stroke or traumatic brain injury? I think you mentioned one patient, your, uh, borderline personality did have some traumatic brain injury, but to help improve with those specific symptoms.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's a great question. [00:37:00] Yes, I'm working with another young man who unfortunately had a couple of severe traumatic brain injuries. He was, uh, in high school. He was camping in the mountains near where we live here. It's pretty common for the kids to go up camping in the mountains. And he decided in the middle of the night that he didn't want to stay so he was driving down the mountain by himself and went off the side of the road and this car tumbled a couple hundred feet and he was stuck in a gully down below and he couldn't get out of the car.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Um, yelled for help. There was nobody out. It was the middle of the night. He was there for hours until the next day when somebody happened to be driving along. I heard him screaming. They flight for life into the local hospital, had a significant traumatic brain injury, um, recovered from it, but later had a second car accident with another traumatic brain injury that left him disabled, um, for years living at home with his mother and father, struggling.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So just to get through the day, he's very depressed, very irritable, cognitive impairment. So we decided to try it for him and he's doing wonderfully. He's much more happy. He's not depressed. He's not so angry. Um, he's becoming more social. So we're seeing some [00:38:00] real progress. And I'll tell you briefly about a patient, Dr.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Wilkinson's, who, uh, was experiencing some atrophy of her occipital lobes in the back of her brain. And this was documented by MRI. She was seeing a local neurologist and Dr. Wilkinson put her on. Sublingual Ketamine, and after nine months, her functioning started to be improving. So they, at that point, did another MRI and saw that her occipital lobes were regrowing.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: There was actually regrowth. In the back of her brain, which is, was not known to be possible. That can't happen, allegedly. That's what I was taught, Sam. But we've got MRI evidence to document that it did. So that's pretty exciting. When we start seeing it's kind of a paradigm buster. Yeah, it can do things.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We just didn't know it was possible doing. And the nice thing about this too, is, you know, we're not the only ones looking at this. There are some folks at UC Davis in California. Who have come to understand that there are medicines that can stimulate the brain to grow and repair. They've put a new name or label on these medicines.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They call them psychoplastogens, which is a big, [00:39:00] uh, big name. But they say these are medicines that stimulate the brain to grow and both, and improve both functionally and structurally. And they're looking for additional medicines that will do the same thing. What's odd about this is that many of the medicines they found that do this already are what are called psychedelic medicines.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, medicines like psilocybin does the same thing, uh, in their lab. It stimulates the release of BDNF, but these medicines aren't yet available in most places. They may become available. There are clinical trials demonstrating that, uh, psilocybin can have very beneficial effects similar to the ketamine, but, um, they're not yet legally available.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: In the meantime, ketamine is legal, legally available, so it's much easier to use.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. Some of those things you mentioned were schedule one, which means no medical use, but ketamine is schedule three, which means it's even easier to, to get to your patient. That's incredible.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's very easy. You know, it just takes the pharmacy a day or two to make it and they can start on it and then you get to wait to see them back and see how they're doing now.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I will mention again, it doesn't work for [00:40:00] everybody. You know, we do have a small percentage of people who don't seem to benefit. We don't know why yet. Um, there may be a variety of reasons. I did have one gentleman who was doing great on it and then started to relapse back into depression. I asked him, has there been any change in your life?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He said, no. So, are you doing anything differently? He said, the only thing I'm doing differently is having a few drinks at night. I said, well, how many? He said, maybe three to six beers a night. I said, well, can you cut back on that a little bit? He said, sure. So, he came back next time. He was doing well again.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He said, I just stopped drinking. I just didn't need it. So we do know that excessive amounts or higher amounts of alcohol interfere with ketamine. And we believe the mechanism may be that it's causing inflammation of the brain. We know that alcohol can inflame the brain, especially at higher amounts. Um, so that may be one reason some people don't respond.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: There may be other reasons that some people don't respond. We don't know what they are yet, but I think as research continues, hopefully we can find out what some of those barriers are and work around those as well.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's incredible. That's just, that's the most amazing thing I've heard all year.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I got to tell you, [00:41:00] Sam, it's a lot of fun being a psychiatrist these days and being able to help people, especially some of these folks that.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I've been working with for years that, you know, really there wasn't a lot of hope for you. I mean, we kept trying different things, but nothing was working. And suddenly now, you know, they're coming in and telling me not just how well they're feeling, but, uh, but their friends, they're telling you about, I have one lady, when she goes to church, she's telling everybody at church, you know, that they need to try this.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: If they have these problems, because she's had such great results. I said, well, no, it's not for everybody. And they need to get in and see their doctor for an evaluation first. But, uh, people are, uh, promoting it because of the great results they're having. And they're so happy with it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's great to see treatments that are actually safe, actually effective, and people are happy to tell their friends to go see doctor, um, to get this for yourself because it's helped me so much.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's, it's good to see that coming back to the world.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's wonderful. You know, it's wonderful that people, and it's affordable, people can do this treatment. Anybody can just about can afford this. And so it's accessible, which is nice. I mean, some of the new medicines, when they come out in psychiatry, some of the antidepressants, [00:42:00] ADHD meds, they may be 700, 000 a month.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: That's just not accessible. And for some people, even if they have insurance, insurance won't cover these medicines, they're too expensive. So it really has hampered people's access to mental health treatment. But this one is pretty affordable, affordable for just about anybody. So I think we're going to be able to help a lot more people with it also.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Um, when you get to a point where you have more information or another paper published, you have access to my show anytime you want,
Dr. Mitchell Liester: just let me know. Well, thank you, Sam. I appreciate that. Well, we've got several papers that we're submitting. Like I said, we do have. The case report of the patient has borderline personalities or had borderline personalities or doesn't anymore.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We're also hoping to submit a paper. We've looked at the potential of ketamine to heal spinal cord injuries. The reason to believe that it may help those with spinal cord injuries because of this neuroplastic effect that it has in the nervous system. There's a interesting case report, um, of a man here in Colorado who wasn't on ketamine, but, uh, he [00:43:00] was, um, kite skiing, which I had to look that up and see what that was.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Because he was out skiing in Chile, South America. with a, like, parachute like device, a kite, that would carry him across the plains on snow. And when a gust of wind picked him up and slammed him into the ground, and he fractured nine vertebrae, he was paralyzed from the chest down. Um, he had spinal decompression surgery, went into rehab, and he got to where he was able to walk with a walker, but still was pretty much paralyzed.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He went to a concert, and some friends gave him some psilocybin mushrooms, and he started feeling muscles firing in his legs that weren't firing before. And he continued to take it, and now he's able to mountain bike, ski, he's walking. And so that led us to think, you know, what is it about psilocybin mushrooms?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, it turns out they're one of these cycloplastogens that stimulate the nervous system. But a lot of people's spinal cord injuries may not want to take psilocybin, but could ketamine potentially do the same thing? We found out that there are studies showing that other cycloplastogens do show evidence for, uh, helping heal spinal cord injuries.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So we hope to suggest this and [00:44:00] put a paper out there. So maybe some neurologists will pick it up and do some research into it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow, that's just a miracle. I mean, making the lame walk kind of miracle.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: It's amazing. The things we're seeing really truly are miracles considering what past medicine could and couldn't do.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We're doing things that didn't happen before. And it's just, it's so wonderful to be able to help people in this way.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. And with the occipital lobe regrowing, that's the blind scene. I mean, that's, it's all that.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Sam, it's amazing. Yeah, that, um, that case is supposed to be presented at Harvard Medical School this year.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: They've asked her, the, the patient to come to Harvard and talk about her case because they want to understand what happened because that shouldn't normally happen, but it did. And they have, like I said, radiographic evidence. They have MRIs showing it worked. And we ran this by our friend, a neurologist, just to make sure we weren't imagining things.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: He said, no, this is truly remarkable. Wow.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's incredible.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: So. Yep. So we're hoping that, uh, uh, and thanks to [00:45:00] your podcast and others that maybe more people will learn about this, hear about it and pursue it. Uh, I don't think we have all the answers. I think we're just scratching the surface, but we need help, you know, doing research and, and uh, getting more people out there exploring this and, and finding out maybe are there other regimens of dosing that might work better?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Are there different doses that might work better? You know, we're going with what works for us, but I'm sure there's still a lot we can do to improve what we're doing. Still too. Even adding in things to boost the effectiveness of the ketamine are possible. Um, studies that could be carried out in the future.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, diet mixed with ketamine might, might have even faster
Dr. Mitchell Liester: improvement. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's one of the things that excites me the most. Yes. Making dietary changes that we know stimulate BDNF and exercise. We know exercise stimulates BDNF, not at the level that ketamine does. Yes. What if you start combining treatments?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: How much better could that be for people? And maybe it would accelerate the growth. We don't know, but it's possible.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's amazing. Well, Dr. Leister, thank you so much for coming on with me, sharing so much. Um, this has been just [00:46:00] shocking. I've just been standing here just like, wow, I know a patient that that could help.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I know a patient that could help. And, you know, I've got them in my mind of who, who I would like to try this for, if they'd be willing to try it.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, Sam, I know a good pharmacist in Phoenix that can get you the medicine if you decide you want to start prescribing it for your patients. Awesome.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Um, and if people want to get ahold of you, is there a way that people can look at your, your work or find your papers, or should they go to NIH and search your name?
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, yeah, I don't have a website, I'm old and so I haven't got my own website, so there are a couple of places, uh, they can go through, they can Google, um, my name, they can, uh, there's a website called ResearchGate that can be accessed by Academicians where I've published all the, all the papers we've done so far.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Uh, and they can also write to me, um, I'm not taking new patients, but I'm glad to share information. My email address is dr. Do I-E-S-T-E-R at proton, P-R-O-T-O-N. Dot me me. And I'll be glad to send people whatever information I have. I [00:47:00] have tons of papers, many, many, many papers about ketamine. It's therapeutic use and I'm glad to share information with anybody that wants to read about it and learn more.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, thank you so much. I, I am so. Grateful that you were able to come and share your, your best wealth of knowledge on this particular subject that I've never heard about before. And I am so grateful to God that you and I just happened to sit at the same table and start talking about these things.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Well, Sam, there are no coincidences in life.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: I don't think it was an accident. I was so happy when you sat down at the table too. And I'm so thrilled that we met and that we're getting to continue as friends and colleagues. And I hope we can continue this collaboration relationship.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yes, sir. God bless you and keep doing his work.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: Thank you, Sam.
Dr. Mitchell Liester: We're going to do our best.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just a reminder for everyone out there, in duty uniform of the day, the full armor of God, let's all make courage more contagious than fear.[00:48:00]
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Doesn&a
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126. Dr. Philip Buckler, The Book On Masks
Today I talk with Dr. Philip Buckler about masks. Dr. Philip Buckler is a dentist and he wrote the premier resource on masks and their effectiveness or more accurately the lack of effectiveness in preventing any illness. Please purchase his book at: https://www.amazon.com/Book-Masks-Comprehensive-Manipulative-Misrepresented-ebook/dp/B0CN5CQKC9
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126. Dr. Philip Buckler, The Book On Masks
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Dr. Philip Buckler: [00:00:00] When people say the science is overwhelmingly in favor of masks, they're either lying or don't know what they're talking about, because the science is overwhelming, but it's all in the opposite direction.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Doesn't dinner sound great as it's cooking? This dinner is from Riverbend Ranch, which always provides prime or high choice, has never been given hormones, never been given antibiotics, never been given mRNA vaccines, it's raised in the USA, it's processed in the USA, in fact, it's fully vertically integrated, which means that they own the cow, it gives birth to the calf, it's raised on their fields, and then taken to their butcher, and then shipped to you.
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Dr. Sam Sigoloff: If you've noticed I've been wearing this t shirt for a few episodes now, I have them available on eBay. Check out the links below to get your size.
Nurse Kelly: Welcome to After Hours with Dr. Sigoloff. On this podcast, you will be encouraged to question everything,
Nurse Kelly: and to have the courage to stand for the truth.
Nurse Kelly: And now, to your host, Dr. Sigoloff.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, thank you for joining us again. I first want to [00:02:00] give a shout out to my Patreon supporters. We've got 2Tough giving 30 a month. We have an anonymous family donor giving 20. 20 a month. We have the Plandemic Reprimando tier that gives 17. 76 a month with Ty, Charles, Tinfoil, Stanley, Dr.
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Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I want to thank you so much for contributing. If you're interested in contributing to help me continue to bring this product forward, go to my Patreon page. Uh, and become a supporter. Also, check out MyCleanBeef. com slash after [00:03:00] hours. That's MyCleanBeef. com slash after hours for some of the best beef that I've certainly ever tasted.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: My next guest is, uh, he's a dentist, and he's written this book. This book is worth every second of either listening to or reading. And if you can see, this is, this is not an easy book. I almost knocked over my, um, auditory, um, my audio board just picking it up. Um, but this is, we have Dr. Philip Buckler on.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Now, sir, thank you so much for joining me. I, I'm about 75 percent weight done with this book, and I wish I would have had this. I wish you could have written it four years ago because I would have used this as evidence to never wear a mask.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, I, I wish, I wish there had been a book like that four years ago, and thank you for that very kind intro.
Dr. Philip Buckler: It's, uh, unfortunately to my, well, there are a few books out there, um, I can't, uh, but nothing, nothing like, uh, nothing quite to that extent. I was, I'm, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to that book, and I just [00:04:00] wanted to, to make a, to make a book like that that would, well, that hopefully will prevent this from ever happening again, or at least push us more in that direction.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, your book is actually, I've used it because I had a patient in the clinic that I work at say, Oh, I want my doctor and staff to be wearing a mask. And I was able to use the evidence in this book, um, to definitively say, you know, ma'am, sir, you may wear a mask if you would like, uh, me and my staff will not wear them as they are dangerous and harmful.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. That's great. I just wanted to make a handy reference so people could do stuff like that, uh, because Yeah, and what I,
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: what I love about this also is not only do you get into the science of it, um, you know, being a doctor, being a dentist, you, you can get into the science of it and, and give good, um, explanation of what's going on.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But, because you've also raised your hand And taking an oath to defend the constitution and we can get into that portion of as much as you want. Um, you understand a [00:05:00] lot of the, the amendment rights that are going on, the rights of different rights that are being violated. And, and you get into that in the about the last half of the book.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, that, uh, that actually turned out to be the largest subsection of the book just because, uh, once I actually started reading all these court cases in the precedents, I, I realized that it's, It, it's just outrageous. What, what, what was done. Um, every, every judge that ruled that mask wearing a mask is not a form of speech was just wrong.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And that just, it, I'd say it's in a clear error of law.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So tell us a bit of your story. You know, as much as you want to, obviously you're, uh, you have some things going on and, and any, anything you say reflects only what your opinions and no one else's. Um. But what got you to this point to start writing this book?
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, thank you. Yes. Well, I, I don't really go into my own personal story in the book just because I wanted to keep the focus [00:06:00] off me and on the issues. But as far as, as far as my own status goes, uh, I am, uh, I'm currently a dentist in the army. And, uh, I, uh, until I finished listening to your podcast a couple episodes a few weeks ago, I thought it was the only person in the army, the only medical provider who'd, uh, said no to masks for reasons of, of conscience ultimately, and sincerely held religious belief.
Dr. Philip Buckler: But I, I essentially, you know, like a lot of the soldiers who, who had to, um, wear a mask, I, I kind of towed the line and did what I had to, to stay out of trouble. But it, I would argue that I was, that I was eventually convicted by the Holy spirit gradually and persistently, that this was not something that I should be doing.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And Part of that was because as I did more and more research for the book and learned about it and learned everything there was to know about masks, my moral duty in respect to wearing, not wearing them, I think actually changed [00:07:00] based on my level of knowledge. So I'm, I'm just one of the thousands of people.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Soldiers that kind of went through that process and got denied and then, uh, went through the elimination paperwork on that. And some of those outcomes were, were good. And some of them, uh, some of them were not so good. And, uh, my, my own elimination board, uh, I believe it was at least two out of the three that chose to the selected to retain, but it was, uh, it was, it was rough.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. It's interesting how all of these, these fights in the military, maybe not all of them, but the overwhelming majority of them go up to this line of what you and I would probably consider. Injury, but just short of what the law or the court system seems to consider as injury I don't know if it seems like them retaining you as a way to say well, we didn't hurt him.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: We didn't harm him We didn't do anything wrong to him. We just you know made him not see patients for you know, however long for me It was almost two years. I didn't see a patient and yeah, that is harmful. That makes me lose my [00:08:00] skills
Dr. Philip Buckler: You could feel your skills decomposing as, as you go on. And then you're not seeing patients is used against you in your officer evaluation report.
Dr. Philip Buckler: At least it wasn't in the one that I got, that got me to the elimination board. So it was kind of a no win situation, but you've, you've been through all that.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, so there are some things from the book that I really wanted to ask you about, um, some of the studies that you talked about, cause, uh, the Solomon Ash study.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And if you could get into that a bit,
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, yeah. So, um, I actually really enjoyed writing the psychology section. I thought that was as important if not. Well, I don't want to say it was more important than the than the physical science as far as infection control and side effects, but I'd say it was at least equally important just because.
Dr. Philip Buckler: All of the classic behavioral psychology studies by Solomon Ash, the group conformity studies, where even if you just do [00:09:00] passive social pressure, you will get a large number of people to conform to doing something masks were a perfect illustration of that. And when you tack on additional social pressure or punitive type pressure.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Pressure as in like you are a bad citizen. If you don't wear a mask, well, that just ups the compliance. And so Solomon Asch did some of the classic early studies on that, where he had people look at a series of lines and in, but the trick, the catch was they had to say, Uh, whether these lines matched out loud out of a multiple choice question and everyone else in the, uh, kind of in the little study group was an accomplice who were pre predetermined to give the wrong answer at several certain points.
Dr. Philip Buckler: So what ash was looking at was whether, whether, um, The, the study subjects themselves would go with the group or whether they would kind of stick to what their, their own eyes were telling them and what they knew to be true, their own visual perception that they relied on on a daily basis just for judging distance and walking around without bumping [00:10:00] into things, how strong that group influence was and, uh, The majority of people did succumb in in at least a few cases, and some just some their perceptions actually warped to perceive the non reality that the group was advocating.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And so that was that was one thing I go into in the book. I talk about Stanley Milgram's experiments where how far people go in obedience to authority. Um, my own experience suggests that Stanley Milgram was right, even as more pessimistic predictions on that, and that's, that's true. That matches my own internal experience as well.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And then Philip Zimbardo, the author of the Stanford Prison Experiment, he, he kind of, uh, developed a lot of Milgram's experiments and wanted to see, like, how, how social roles and, um, kind of defined social influences can make, uh, otherwise good people or normally good people do, do really bad things. And Zimbardo was actually a consultant for the army when.
Dr. Philip Buckler: If you, [00:11:00] if you read his book, the Lucifer effect, uh, he was actually a consultant for the army after, after the Abu Ghraib, um, scandal went down. So he talks about some, some of the social factors that influenced and got soldiers to do the things they did in those cases. And based on my own experiences with masks, I don't necessarily know that I would have done any better than them.
Dr. Philip Buckler: To be honest, it's, uh, my, my own experiences left me very, um, Very, uh, kind of cynical, or at least with a much more accurate view of, of what I most likely would have done when faced with a lot of different historical situations, and a lot of those evaluations are not flattering. So it's, I really enjoyed reading about that stuff recreationally before all this went down, so I put it into the book because it was just watching these principles illustrated in live time, and I wasn't the only one who was, who was tracking these either.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Um, I, I cite that, um, that. Um, uh, the Twitter [00:12:00] wit, um, who's him, who goes by the handle bad cat, um, who, who posted that excellent illustration with a Venn diagram showing COVID policy at the central intersection of all the ash, Milgram and Zimbardo studies, and then got banned from Twitter for saying that.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I remember in, when I was shortly out of residency, I, I was able to watch that, that movie that was about Milgram and his experiment. And I feel like when I was watching that, I was kind of like looking back on that experience. I'm, I'm wondering if that was what helped me make it through this and make the stand that I knew was right, rather than.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: succumbing to those peer pressures because it, you know, that it wasn't just a guy in a white coat standing there with the clipboard that pressured you and me and Kyle Robbins and all the people that have resisted this so far.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. It was, it was much more than that. It was a bunch of [00:13:00] people with higher ranks were saying, we will punish you if you don't do this.
Dr. Philip Buckler: So it's, yeah. I mean, if, if you look at, if you look at the, the power of, of people acting in their own, in their own spheres of influence to enforce things like that, it, it gets incredible. Even even early experiments, just looking at professors and students found that, um, you can get, you can get students to shock innocent puppies repeatedly, electrically with genuine shocks, uh, just because the professor says so, even though the student's grades doesn't don't depend on it.
Dr. Philip Buckler: That's another one of the studies I cite in the book.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. And. Yeah. And
Dr. Philip Buckler: yeah, it's
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: those people don't just have ranks, but they affect your pay. They can, you know, for like you, me, and for Dr. Kyle Robbins, they could start a process that could take away licensures to where it would financially destroy you and, and what you built for your entire life to be able to provide for your family.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. And they can also sit and they can also sick a bunch of bureaucrats to comb through all of [00:14:00] your medical records and second guess every medical decision that you've made. And that's one of the way, that's one of the ways that you, that you shut up providers who are either right or disagreeing. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Buckler: You just, you, you run them through the process as punishment.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That is a interesting thing that you just mentioned that almost like you knew that that was happening to me, um, as that is still happening to me. I had a peer review and I. I asked for a, an appeal to that in November of 22, and I will find, and I'm outta the army now.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Mm-Hmm, , August of 23, I got outta the Army, and this April of 22 or 24, so two years afterwards, I'll finally get my appeal.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh my goodness. That's, if I hadn't, if I hadn't observed everything over the last three years, I would find that almost unbelievable. But now I'm just, that's par for the course. That's just the way it works.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And it's, it, it, it, it'll drive you nuts.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And what's even more, I don't know how you handled
Dr. Philip Buckler: it, to be [00:15:00] honest, I was terrified
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: of going through that experience. What's even more infuriating is this entire thing. I have proof that it's, it's been done illegally and improperly and it never should have happened.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's fruit of the poisonous vine and, and it never should have started, let alone get to a point where they're trying to revoke privileges that I don't have. And now they want to, it's just,
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh yeah, it's enough about
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: me.
Dr. Philip Buckler: It broke privileges that you don't have. So they can retroactively revoke privileges and that can carry on later.
Dr. Philip Buckler: That's, that's new territory. Or it should be new territory, but
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: there was one thing you mentioned about the ACE receptors and wearing a mask that just, I really wanted to have you explain more and have the public be able to hear this, that you talked about dead space. You talked about CO2 and you talked about ACE receptors.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Do you does that ring a bell for you?
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, yeah, that was the, that was almost a, um, I think that was a footnote, um, or one of the, or one of the sub paragraphs in the science, in the science [00:16:00] section where, uh, where there was a laboratory study that looked at, uh, Low oxygen or high CO2 conditions that increased the, at least in the laboratory, those increased the number of receptors whereby the ACE2 receptors that SARS CoV 2 could bind to the respiratory epithelial cells.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And so while I mean, it's a laboratory study and I'm always kind of cautious about those because so many bad laboratory studies were used to justify masking. And I cover a lot of those in the book too, especially the ones that CDC cited, but looking at this. But the point is when you look at studies like this, where it's like, okay, well, if these cells are being subjected to high CO2, low oxygen conditions, they're expressing these ACE2 receptors more.
Dr. Philip Buckler: That's just creating more binding sites for SARS, uh, for SARS. potential binding sites for SARS CoV 2. So if there was an objective evaluation of all, even the laboratory based evidence, that alone should have been enough to preclude forcing everyone to wear a mask because this evidence was out there too.[00:17:00]
Dr. Philip Buckler: And that pushed, you know, that kind of mitigated against the idea that having everyone wear a mask was, was a good idea.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. And then, and then you go into, I don't remember if you do this first or after, but you talk about how. So it seemed time and time and time again that the areas that wore masks had higher rates of outbreak.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, there was, the main bottom line was no statistically significant difference, but when you looked at the, when you like really drilled down into the data, um, The areas that wore masks did have either had no statistically significant difference or a slightly higher, uh, higher, uh, incidence of SARS CoV 2.
Dr. Philip Buckler: I mean, one of the, one of the most egregious examples of that was how, um, the, I want to say it was the Kansas public health domain published, uh, published in the CDC's non peer reviewed MMWR. Uh, publication, they tried to claim that masks were [00:18:00] associated with a decreased incidence or decreased acceleration in the rate of SARS CoV 2.
Dr. Philip Buckler: But when you actually looked at the infection rate of SARS CoV 2 in the non masked Kansas counties versus the mask mandate counties, you saw that the mask mandate counties. The non mask mandate counties actually started their study period with a higher incidence of covid. Um, it was about almost double the, uh, the mass mandate counties.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And then over the period of time that the study was conducted, the, the non masked counties actually had a slower rate of acceleration of SARS, Covey to and. They start and they finish the study with a lower overall rate of SARS CoV 2. So it, it's um, and I have the diagrams and all, all that and in that section of the book when I talk about that study, but that was just, that was just one of those examples.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And that's, and that was just one of the ones where you even had something resembling a control group. And if you look at, say, the great, uh, the work of Dr. Hogue, I quote, um, I quote a lot of [00:19:00] her studies because she did some excellent kind of reexaminations of some of the studies that the CDC was touting, saying, Oh, look, masks in schools work and we, you know, we analyzed all these and it's like, wait a minute, well, why'd you exclude all these other school districts in the state and elsewhere?
Dr. Philip Buckler: And when she pulled, um, when she and her colleagues pulled, uh, so about seven times the amount of data. In that the CDC was pulling and actually looked at it over a broader period of time. They saw that the CDC was really cherry picking the data. So the mask mandate schools actually had a higher, a slightly higher incidence of SARS CoV 2 again, not a statistically significant difference when you, when you actually looked at it, it was pushing in the direction of masks, having a slightly higher incidence of COVID.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And I guess one of my contributions, I'm
Dr. Philip Buckler: sorry, go ahead.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It makes sense with what
Dr. Philip Buckler: you explained about the ACE receptors.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Oh, yeah.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, good. Yeah. And that was honestly, I think my primary science [00:20:00] contribution in the book was just to cover some of the, that little section on why masks don't work. That was just pulling together all, all of the kind of secondary effects of masks as and why would we potentially see an effect in the laboratory, but see the, this total non effect in the real world over and over and over again for the last hundred plus years.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And so that. That little section right there is listing some of the possible secondary effects that would neutralize or even, you know, completely counterbalance any, any potential filtration benefits, which I'm still personally skeptical of. Uh, that's, that was my, my contribution as far as listing all of those.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Cause oftentimes people won't believe you that masks don't work unless you can explain, well, why don't they work?
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And I don't think you got into this. I heard a, um, an engineer getting into how N95s work. The mass that's supposed to block 95 percent of particles, uh, that are, uh, what, 0. 5 microns and larger.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and it uses this, [00:21:00] these van der Waals forces. So if you imagine a mesh, but the mesh isn't small enough to catch everything. They have a slight negative charge. And when something flies past it, it sticks to the negative charge. And, which sounds great. It's, it's good to stop stuff from coming in. But not so much to stop stuff from coming out because it has to move away from your face, or you have to have a valve in there to allow it to come the air to come out.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And then the issue is, is once you've been wearing it for a short period of time, the moisture from your breath will get that mask wet and neutralize that negative charge. And now it's no better than a surgical mask.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. And I mean, as, as I'm sure you're aware, Well aware, every comparison between surgical masks and N95s has found no statistically significant difference in terms of efficacy for preventing any sort of respiratory disease.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And that includes the one that was done in multiple hospitals over a period of years that was partially funded by the CDC. [00:22:00]
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just a simple family medicine doctor's perspective on this is if you, um, look at how large of a particle that an N95 can stop. Thank you The smallest thing it can stop is, uh, I believe it's 0.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: 3 microns. It doesn't even stop smoke, uh, but the virus is 0. 15 microns. It's half the size. And so I think you use this analogy of using a chain link fence to keep the ocean back. And that's exactly what it is.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. And in the, in the book, I had like a one page diagram where I actually did a scale mock up of the virus size comparison next to a 5 mm, 5 micrometer and 30 micrometer in 95 pore sizes.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And the virus is basically a pixel on the page that you can barely see compared to a very clear sized circle. So I, I thought that was, that was worth illustrating. And, um, Like you mentioned, the electrostatic charge filtration function sounds good in [00:23:00] theory, but that was, I mean, that was tested at least in a couple of laboratory studies, and they found that it didn't really make a big difference as far as viruses were concerned.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And then when you look at other lab studies, um, Showing that the, that SARS CoV 2 remained viable on, um, on mask material longer than, longer than almost any other surface. Well, that alone could, could counteract any filtration benefits. So, it's, I mean, the science, when people say the science is overwhelmingly in favor of masks, they're either lying or don't know what they're talking about.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Because the science is overwhelming, but it's all in the opposite direction.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, as a dentist, and I don't know, You know, I understand there's been some things that have been happening since then, um, as far as seeing patients. Um, do you, have you seen, or have you had concerns about, yeah, have you had concerns or seen people mouth breathing a lot more, contributing to dental caries and other dental disease?
Dr. Philip Buckler: I personally [00:24:00] haven't observed that a whole lot. I mean, there's not a, there's not a lot of, um, Kind of anatomical issues that good self care won't, uh, won't help as far as dental goes, at least as far as the basics are concerned. Uh, I have, I have heard of that and I've seen it reported, although I personally haven't encountered a whole lot of it, if any.
Dr. Philip Buckler: But I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to rule it out. I mean, I kind of mentioned it in the book, but I, I hadn't really been able to verify it, so I didn't. Uh, it was kind of a mention in passing sort of thing. As far as the book was concerned, I tried to stick to stuff that was in published scientific sources that even, even people who disagreed with me would be hard pressed to, to discount.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of information that you couldn't put in there. Otherwise I could have
Dr. Philip Buckler: really expanded the bibliography.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of things that you couldn't put in there just because you're limited to only being this size. [00:25:00]
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, I mean, I'm, I mean, you already, as you saw, it is still a fairly intimidating size as it is. So I tried to make it as accessible as possible. And there's just something about seeing it in, in print that kind of emphasizes the, the sheer volume.
Dr. Philip Buckler: But, you know, it's, it's about a 17 hour audio book and, um, I'm. Uh, if, if anyone's concerned about cost or anything like that, just email me at Philip Buckler at the book on masks. com and I'll send you a, a digital PDF with all the live hyperlinks because I, I hyperlink each one of the sources. I want to, I want people to be able to check every, everything in that book.
Dr. Philip Buckler: I don't want them to take my word for anything,
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: but I also want to encourage people. Go buy it. I'm actually
Dr. Philip Buckler: rather proud of that PDF.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Please go buy it. Give him appreciate that. Give him the money.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, Yeah, all proceeds will go directly towards funding my, my, um, my legal actions as far as, um, trying to ensure that this never happens again and hopefully establish a precedent that benefits all, all service members and [00:26:00] Americans.
Dr. Philip Buckler: I know that's a long shot, but it's, it's a shot that's worth taking.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Are you able to talk about some of your, your legal endeavors? So that's where the
Dr. Philip Buckler: proceeds are going.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: We, we share a common thread as we, we found out recently that we're using the same lawyer and, uh, which is, which is great because my lawyer is amazing and he's one of the best ones that I've, I've ever come across.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Uh, but are you able to, um, talk about any of the cases that you're involved in?
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, there matters of public records, so people can just go look them up. Um, I'm currently suing Lloyd Austin and company in the, uh, Western District of Texas over the masking issue. Specifically for violations of the First Amendment Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Administrative Procedure Act and in my complaint, I'm I'm alleging that, you know, compulsory masking is a violation of First Amendment speech and also First Amendment free [00:27:00] exercise.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And in, in the book, I articulate a lot of those speech arguments under the first amendment in a way that I don't think has actually been articulated in most of the lawsuits and certainly not in the, in the rulings dismissing those cases, because there's a lot of first amendment issues surrounding masks that just Are not covered in a lot of these cases, all the judges just kind of stuck there, stuck their ears or their fingers in their ears and said, la, la, la, I can't hear you or I refuse to hear you.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Therefore, you're not saying anything. But the fact of the matter is that under legal precedent wearing a mask. Or taking one off, depending on the context is a form of symbolic speech, but it's and so that alone should have been enough to trigger strict scrutiny under the First Amendment, but it's it's not just that it's you have a First Amendment right to not associate with speech with which you disagree and compulsory masking, uh, going beyond forcing you simply to associate with speech with which you disagree.
Dr. Philip Buckler: It actually overwrites It overwrites the speech that you want to [00:28:00] project. It forces you to project the message of whoever's trying to force you to wear a mask. And you also have a first amendment right to receive speech. So everyone's first amendment right to receive the disagreeing speech, especially of healthcare providers who were refusing to wear masks or objected to wear masks, everyone's first amendment rights.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And that. Respect were violated. And I don't think I've seen any lawsuits that alleged that. And finally, facial expressions are a form of pure speech. And that's never been ruled on in court, but that's just clearly obvious. That's one of the people communicate by facial expressions clearly and articulately from the, from the time that they're babies.
Dr. Philip Buckler: It's before they even learned written or vocal speech other than just, you know, basic vocalizations. So the fact that this, that any judge could even seriously contemplate trying to dismiss a First Amendment mass case just blows my mind. And I'll give some of them the benefit of the doubt because I don't think a lot of these issues were articulated as thoroughly as they could be.
Dr. Philip Buckler: You're [00:29:00] kind of limited in what you can do in an initial complaint. So those are some of the, um, those are some of the grounds that I'm, that I'm, that I'm arguing in my first amendment suit. And then for me personally, there's the religious freedom restoration act, which, which says that the government may not, uh, the government may not, uh, impose, burden a person's sincerely held religious practices, even from a rule of general applicability without satisfying strict scrutiny.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And a lot of these mass cases under first amendment grounds were like, Oh, a lot of the judges would just assert that the mask rules were neutral and generally applicable and therefore pass first amendment scrutiny. Uh, that was incorrect, but that's what they would assert. And, uh, in the religious freedom restoration act goes a step beyond that.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Uh, it was passed in response to another military case, uh, in the 1980s, Where, uh, the military kicked out, um, essentially a Jewish rabbi for wearing a yarmulke against regulations. And [00:30:00] that I read that case, and it's, uh, the dissent was the best part of that case. It was just, but unfortunately, that particular ruling got us where we are now.
Dr. Philip Buckler: But partially in response to that case, Congress passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act to provide a more robust protection for people's religious rights under the First Amendment and kind of restore that strict scrutiny test. So in the case of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, that's oftentimes what in, I mean, you know, this is, uh, in some ways probably even better than I do, as far as the vaccine cases go, uh, that was what actually got the cases passed the motions to dismiss.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I was going to ask, um, I haven't finished your book. I'm about to. 25 percent left. But did you get into any of the EUA and the law, the emergency use authorization and masking in particular?
Dr. Philip Buckler: I touched on that, but in the footnotes. So that wouldn't show up in the audio book. Um, that it was, I felt that other people had done a really good job of covering [00:31:00] that.
Dr. Philip Buckler: So I didn't hit it as hard as I otherwise could, but it's, it's in the footnotes. Yeah. Good question. But the, the interesting thing about that is, you're absolutely right. They were. EUAs and I linked to those EUA documents too,
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: and it was illegal to tell a service member to participate in any EUA product from the start before all this happened.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Mm-Hmm, . And it's 10 USC 1107 alpha. So masking testing and shots have all been covered under EUA. So even though people have been trying to get First Amendment coverage and religious coverage for these issues, it was already illegal to begin with.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, yeah. And, and that was just ignored. That was one of the many frustrations. All this stuff just got ignored and it's, you can see how other bad things in history kind of developed and snowballed from there when all these essential principles and even the procedural protections just got ignored. If I hadn't lived through [00:32:00] it, I wouldn't believe it,
Dr. Philip Buckler: but yeah, that was, that was a good point to bring up.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And I know that's your particular area of expertise.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yes, sir. I, um, my case is, is more about fourth amendment and whistleblower protection act violations. Um, there was a first amendment issue when my commander told me that I cannot talk about COVID 19 vaccine or virus during the duty day or in uniform. Uh, because as, as a physician to be able to properly consent people, uh, or even discuss treatments for COVID.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I have to be able to discuss the vaccine and, and the virus.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. I, I heard you talking about that and I was, I was just blown away, but not in a good way that that was [00:33:00] shocking, but not surprising after ever, after everything we've went through. So it's, that's, that just had to be so aggravating. I
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: think the most shocking thing of all was when, uh, in the investigate investigation that I endured, they, put in there that I was handing out constitute pocket constitutions as if I was some radical trying to turn people against the United States.
Dr. Philip Buckler: What? That's that makes, that makes zero sense. And also a nice job on those. I've got one next to my desk too. I'm just glancing up at it. Um, but yeah, that's how on earth would the, how would passing out Copies of the document that both of us swore to uphold possibly radicalized people.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, it's, that's how far we've come as military officers that [00:34:00] handing these out when you were sitting there trying to, uh, not be coerced into getting a shot is something that's bad.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, it's, it's the times we live in. But God bless you for doing that. I, I was afraid of going through the experience that you had and that Dr. Robbins had, that was, that was my big, that was, it took me too long to do the right thing. Part of that was waiting on the bureaucracy to actually reject the, to reject the religious accommodation request, because anyone with two brain cells to rub together in 2021 could tell none of the armed, none of the armed services were acting in good faith when it came to those.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And it took me entirely too long. And, you know, against my better judgment, I continued to wear a mask. And, and what's even more bothersome [00:35:00] is that There are claims that I would take off my mask when I was seeing patients at my previous duty station in Alaska. And they're actually bringing that against me, saying, Oh, he's incompetent because he disobeyed hospital policy that he had to wear a mask.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And the most upsetting part is I actually did wear a mask, and I never took it off in front of a patient so that no one could ever make that argument.
Dr. Philip Buckler: That policy was bad to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, and that's if it's your judgment as a physician that that that that would not have been a risk to the patient. I don't I think that's your prerogative as a physician to to make. I don't think that the hospital policy should override that. It's just this dogmatic application of hospital policy drives me nuts when it comes to stuff like that, because it's people who don't know what they're talking about making that policy when
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Huachuca and still active duty.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Um, I had to go get my teeth cleaned by the at the dental facility they have. [00:36:00] And the OIC of the dentist came out. He's a lieutenant colonel. And he said, you got to wear a mask. And I said, sir, You know, they don't work. I know they don't work. You also are now aware because I'm about to tell you that they're illegal for you to tell me to wear a mask under 10 USC 1107 alpha.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And he said, well, it's it's clinic policy. I said, that may be very well true, but your policy cannot supersede federal code. Let me think about this. He walks off about two minutes later, the hygienist comes back and takes me back and no mask. And there we go. And then about two weeks later, no more masking policy.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Well, I'm sorry we didn't run into each other in person. By that time, I wasn't in that clinic, but I would have loved to run into another major like you.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: The lieutenant colonel was not too happy.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Well, I mean, the dental corps split over like every other corps.[00:37:00]
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: What other things from the book do you really want to get out for the public to hear that you think are the most important issues?
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, man, well, uh, One of my concerns now is just to try not to intimidate people with, with the size. It was really meant to be modular. It's more like four or five books that just happened to be kind of juxtaposed and, um, kind of, they are presented linearly.
Dr. Philip Buckler: So, so it does read best, um, from, from cover to cover, but you can really jump around as, as needed to the different sections, whether if you want to start in the science section or the psychology section or the philosophy section or the law section. Um, the, I think, I think you'll find the, the appendix where I detail my own, um, religious beliefs on, on those that finally got me to say no, um, even when I had had something more substantial than getting kicked out of Walmart by a policeman on the line, because that did happen for [00:38:00] refusing to wear a mask at one point, um, yeah, they caught me at the, at the checkout and wouldn't let me check out.
Dr. Philip Buckler: So then I just left and went to another Walmart and got all my groceries there, thereby spreading COVID according to their mentality. But as, as far as, um, what it it's really supposed to cover, um, what, whatever anyone is, is interested in, as far as this goes, I mean, the, the science was the most, the science was what everyone was arguing about because that's the easiest thing to argue about.
Dr. Philip Buckler: It's, it's kind of the tip of the iceberg, uh, so to speak, the, the real underlying issues like the, the beliefs that people have that, you know, if it. If it works, we can force everyone to do it. Um, flawed beliefs like that. Um, those tended not to get addressed as directly. You could see some argument. I, I, I cite some of the um, peripheral um, arguments because those were taking place.
Dr. Philip Buckler: But the, the philosophical arguments, the psychology of it, I really did enjoy going into that. That's definitely worth going into, if only to kind of arm yourself so you can see the same techniques [00:39:00] being used against you later on. Because I really think my recreational reading prior to 2020, uh, like your, your own, uh, having gone over the Milgram experiments, uh, that, that does kind of help prepare you so you can see when this stuff is coming and it, it might not be enough on its own to keep you from complying or falling for it, but it helps.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And, uh, and the, for me. Having all this knowledge, uh, all, all of the empirical science, psychology, all that wasn't enough to get me to finally say, no, it was the religious beliefs that I detail in the appendix because I was, because I was afraid it's I, I get it when, when people had, um, And it wasn't that I was afraid of COVID.
Dr. Philip Buckler: I was afraid of having the hammer dropped on me. And those fears were not entirely groundless, even though, even though I had a better experience than than the newer Dr. Robbins,
Dr. Philip Buckler: you know, when, when people, I, [00:40:00] um, The bottom line is I get it, um, when, when people, uh, complied and that might've been their moral duty at that point. Uh, I think, I think God laid very individualized moral duties and he called some people to stand up for this, um, particularly aggressively and other people, it was, it was permissible to comply and that they had other, uh, other things they needed to do.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Everybody had their own place in their own fight and their own place that God called them to be. And, you know, I was. either, either way for the, for the fight that I was put into, but I feel like I was groomed for this position. Um, through my whole life, God has, has made me to be someone who will.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: reason to, when I see something and go for it, whether it's, you know, that's harmed me in the past, you know, go in the wrong direction. But in this particular instance, it was a time such as this. Um, I was, so when I was at my previous duty station in Alaska, this is probably mid, [00:41:00] 20, maybe early 21, and I was having a discussion with another doctor and there was all these videos coming out by army doctor saying why I got the shot.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: This is why I got the shot because I love my family and I don't want my grandma to die and all this stupid stuff. And so, uh, I wasn't talking to my wife. Oh my
Dr. Philip Buckler: goodness.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I was talking to my wife and I said, you know, I want to make a video as to, uh, why I didn't get the shot to encourage people to not get it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and she told me, you know, Don't do that. You will be taken out of patient care and I was talking with another doctor colleague of mine and and he said, well, I told him that, you know, we're, we're almost in Venezuela and he said, no, this isn't almost Venezuela. We are in Venezuela because if we weren't in Venezuela, You would be able to make that video and not have to be, not to concern yourself with being kicked out of patient care for the rest of your life.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and it was, it was striking back then. I thought, nah, this guy's wrong. He's wrong. We're not [00:42:00] there yet. Boy, was he right? Boy, howdy, was he right?
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, I, yeah, it's one of those cases where it's like, I want someone to be wrong, but not because I want them to be wrong. It's just, man, I hear you. And he was an army doctor.
Dr. Philip Buckler: That was one of the things cited in my book.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And he got the shot. He was all for the shot. And it was interesting, too. He said, Yeah, we get one and we get two, but if we ever get, you know, three or we get them every, every three months, it will be gene therapy at that point. And they can keep changing it a little bit over time and be able to change the human genetics even if we're getting them that often.
Dr. Philip Buckler: It was gene therapy from shot number one. That's the, well, man, but that's another, that's another example of how you get,
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: he denied that it was gene therapy to begin with, but he said, well, if we're doing it every three or six months, then, then it's gene therapy.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Well, um, if, [00:43:00] Hopefully he stopped getting them now.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah,
Dr. Philip Buckler: but yeah, it's, it's like that. It's the gradual successive steps. It's like, okay, well, if this goes one more step crazy, one more crazy step further, that's when I'll stand up. Uh, it's, yeah, that's, uh, you, you find yourself in a, in a place where you've, you should have stood up a long time ago.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Real fast.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Exactly.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And yeah, but I was so excited to hear about you and your podcast and, and other, other similar, um, doctors. Cause it's, it's also kind of an isolating experience. You think you're the only one. And that was the case where I was really happy to find out that I was wrong.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. I've, I've been pleasantly surprised anytime I found any medical, any medical professional, but even more so a military medical professional like Dr.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: P Chambers. Um, And regrettably, he did get the shot, but he's he stood against it since the beginning. He's helped [00:44:00] thousands of Texas National Guardsmen from from getting the shot by giving them attic as adequate informed consent as we can give early on, got connected with Dr Teresa Long, who made a very public statement and tried to ground almost all of the Air Corps in the army.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Didn't go over well with her superiors, I have no doubt. No, it didn't. But, but God bless her for that.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And then Kyle Robbins, who stood up for, for night wearing the mask, and he was removed from patient care. Yeah. And he even went so far as to say, I will see patients outside, and that wasn't good enough.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Mm hmm. Yeah, I, I believe it because it's, it's, it wasn't about the science and that, um, I listened to your podcast with him and I mean, he even had Mr.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Petty, the industrial hygienist testify on, on his behalf and I'm sure, uh, I'm sure they raised the, the EUA [00:45:00] arguments and, and all that just fell on deaf ears. It was because it wasn't it wasn't about the science or the or the practicality or or it wasn't like whoever was calling the shots didn't care whether it resulted in half the half the patients who would normally be seen in a time period not getting the scene because I crunched those numbers.
Dr. Philip Buckler: It was it was it was about control and compliance
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: compliance
Dr. Philip Buckler: and worse. Yeah.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: In the last few minutes here, what do you want to leave us with? What, what do you, and then, uh, once you're, once you say that, I want you to give us a good place where we can find where to get this book. I'll put the link that you tell us, I'll put it down on the bottom. I want to encourage everyone who's listening to get this.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Put this on your shelf. Um, if you have this in paper copy, no one can ever change it. It's in hard copy. It's in your house. You can [00:46:00] use it as a reference. You can use it as, as exciting, easy list reading or listening. But if it's on digital format, so I buy audio books, but I always have a hard copy to keep in my house so that someday my kids can read it, no matter what happens to digital devices.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: If someone goes into my phone and, and steals it out of my phone, or someone goes into my phone and puts a, YouTube album, a YouTube album on my phone, they can't take this out of my possession unless they actually come to my home and take it, which will be a very challenging endeavor for them.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, I'd be interested to see if that thing would stop a 22 caliber bullet.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Might, might be worth doing a trial with that. That was my copy. Final thoughts. Um, Well, uh, I mean, just thank you for the opportunity to talk about it because, um, I want to, my, my overriding objective is to get the information to as many hands as possible and to try to ensure that this never happens again.
Dr. Philip Buckler: So I don't want, um, like, like I said, just email me at philip buckler at the book on masks dot com. That's the website, the [00:47:00] book on masks dot com. Uh, and, and if, if, It's a problem. I'll shoot you the the PDF the pub and and links to the audio books. But if if you do buy a copy, then great. I appreciate that too.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Because it supports my legal efforts to hopefully, hopefully create a precedent that benefits every American. And like I said, I know these are long shots, but you work with what you have. And it's been a wild ride, but it's one that I, it's one that my main regret is not doing it sooner and harder. At the same point in time, it's also been very tiring.
Dr. Philip Buckler: So, but it's, it's been good, good and good in the sense of, uh, Your faith really kind of grows and you, you don't, um, you don't regret it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. For us as a family, we, we thought at times it was too hard, but, um, yeah, there [00:48:00] was times where we thought we wouldn't get a paycheck and, and by the grace of God, we never went a month without a paycheck, you know, they threatened to take away my extra bonus for being a doctor because you're going to lose your privileges.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Didn't lose my privileges, you know, then, then they threatened, you know, then I. I get out and I don't have a job, then I find a job, then I get fired from that civilian job for going against shots when they knew when they hired me that I was against the shots. And in that same week, God gave me another opportunity where I can work in this place and it will be a future where I can work forever.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And the guy who owns it is a Christian and he believes the same as I do.
Dr. Philip Buckler: That's wonderful. Wow. And that answered a question that I had about, um, about where you were at right now. So, I mean, I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah. In
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: fact, they, when I brought them my CV, they said, This is the D. O. we've been looking for because, uh, the man who owns the clinic is a D.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: O. as well. [00:49:00]
Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, that's great. Yeah. I've, I've started to develop some positive stereotypes about DOs throughout all this because disproportionate, a disproportionate, a slightly larger proportion of DOs has been good on this than, than MDs. So go
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: find yourself a good deal.
Dr. Philip Buckler: So take that for what, for what you will.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah.
Dr. Philip Buckler: Yes. DOs are great.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, sir, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for your stand. Thank you for, for joining us. Taking the time to write this, this is, this is a reference that I will keep on my, on my desk for when patients come in and say, Well you can't, you gotta be wearing a mask. No. No, take the time to look at the information, read it, it's here.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and you'll understand why I am so confident that I don't need to wear a mask and how it's harmful to me and to everyone around me.
Dr. Philip Buckler: And eventually, I have vague plans for a second edition in five or six years. We'll see, because I'll need to add a few more [00:50:00] studies, but it's big enough already. But yeah, thank you.
Dr. Philip Buckler: There was hardly a session of that book that did not begin with prayer. As far as writing it goes.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, I'm honored and blessed to have you on the show. And I'm honored to find other men, other Christians, to be standing up alongside. That I can stand next to. And we can lock arms and, and stop the evil and assault it rather than be assaulted by it.
Dr. Philip Buckler: The honor is mine. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you. Keep doing the great work on your end. I'm looking forward to more of your podcast episodes.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Thank you.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just a reminder for everyone out there, in duty uniform of the day, the full armor of God, let's all make courage more contagious than fear.[00:51:00]
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Doesn't dinner sound great as it's cooking? This dinner is from Riverbend Ranch, which always provides prime or high choice. Has never been given hormones, never been given antibiotics, never been given mRNA vaccines. It's raised in the USA. It's processed in the USA. In fact, it's fully vertically integrated, which means that they own the cow, it gives birth to the calf, it's raised on their fields, and then taken to their butcher, and then shipped to you.
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125. Chris Clagett, How the COVID Shot Can Cause Cancer
Today I talk with Dr. Chris Clagett, MD, MPH. Dr. Clagett is a retired Navy Preventive Medicine Physician. He talks about the Declaration of Military Accountability (DMA) and he talks about the disastrous COVID-19 shots that can cause cancer in at least 7 different ways.
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If you would like to purchase better than grass fed and grass finished beef that will never get mRNA injections, never get growth hormones and never get antibiotics check out mycleanbeef.com/afterhours
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125. Chris Clagett, How can it cause cancer
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Dr. Chris Clagett: [00:00:00] You talked about, you know, mechanisms by which the injectable genes cause cancer. I think I can tick off seven. The one mechanism by which they outright cause cancer is by reverse integration into the chromosomes, the, the nuclear genome. The problem is one, you cannot control the location of the integration.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And this is why gene therapy has always, always, always failed. They can't control the site of integration. Gene therapy is associated with cancer.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Doesn't dinner sound great as it's cooking? This dinner is from Riverbend Ranch, which always provides prime or high choice, has never been given hormones, never been given antibiotics, never been given mRNA vaccines.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's raised in the U. S. A. It's processed in the U. S. A. In fact, it's fully vertically integrated, which means that they own the cow, it gives birth to the calf, it's raised on their fields, and then taken to their [00:01:00] butcher, and then shipped to you. And if we compare, What we can buy from River Bend Ranch to four other major state companies that sell bundles that have ribeyes and other meat in it.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It can be as much as 184 to 59 less expensive. It's a great price value and it's a delicious piece of meat. Check out MyCleanBeef.com/Afterhours. That's mycleanbeef.com/afterhours, mycleanbeef.com/afterhours.
Nurse Kelly: Welcome to After Hours with Dr. Sigoloff.
Nurse Kelly: On this podcast, you will be encouraged to question
Nurse Kelly: everything.[00:02:00]
Nurse Kelly: And to have the courage to stand for the
Nurse Kelly: truth. And now, to your host, Dr. Sigoloff.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I want to for joining me again. I first want to give a shout out to all my Patreon supporters. We've got Too Tough giving 30. 00. A month, we've got the anonymous family donor giving 20. 20 a month. And then we have the plandemic reprimando giving 17. 76 a month with Ty, Charles, Tinfoil, Stanley, Dr. Anna, Frank. Brian, Shell, Brantley, Gary, and Sharon. We've got Kevin giving 10 and Pat and Bev giving 10 a month. We have the Refine Not Burn level at 5 with Linda, Emmy, Joe, PJ, Rebecca, and Matt. Marcus, Elizabeth, Don, Ken, Rick, Mary, and Amanda. We have Addison Mulder giving 3 a month, and Frank giving 1. 50. And then finally, Courage is Contagious level at 1 a month with Jay, SpessNasty, Durell, Susan, and BB King and Caleb.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I want to [00:03:00] thank you all so much for helping me get these episodes out to you. You'll get an extra special sneak peek of these before they actually get aired. Also, check out MyCleanBeef. com slash After Hours. That's MyCleanBeef. com slash After Hours for some of the best beef that I've ever had. My next guest, I have Dr.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Chris Kleggett on, and he is a, um, Preventative health physician. So what he does is he specializes in learning what diseases are out there and how to help prevent from them spreading and he knows all about those types of things. Chris, it's so glad to have, I'm so glad to have you on.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Sam, thank you. Thank you for the privilege to speak to your audience.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So let's get into what you wanted to talk to talk about today.
Dr. Chris Clagett: What I wanted to talk to your audience about is the Declaration of Military Accountability, which they may be familiar with, at least some of them. And the reason I think that [00:04:00] this is so important, that we hold government accountable. Uh, officials, whether military or civilian, accountable for their lawless actions is because of the harms that they, their, their actions have caused.
Dr. Chris Clagett: You know, if you're, if you're in, you know, say some civilian, civil action, you've had a, you've had a motor vehicle accident. and you're being sued. Uh, the, the, the plaintiff is, is asking for damages that are based on, um, the harms caused to the plaintiff. You know, is there a little bit of fender bender, somebody physically injured, injured, or was somebody in which, you know, and the, the penalties go up commensurately.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Well, with the injectable genes, we have had not only military members, but you know, civilians across the United States, not only have incur life altering vaccine injury, [00:05:00] shouldn't really call it a vaccine. It's, it's an injectable gene, call it a vaccine because that's the common parlance, uh, in the national conversation.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, but they, they don't resemble any historical vaccine. They are, they're a gene, a full gene. 3, 600 nucleotides that code for a 1, 200 plus amino acid protein. No, no vaccine in, in the history of vaccinology has ever attempted to do this. These, these genes that are injected, uh, have not only caused life altering injury, but they've killed many people.
Dr. Chris Clagett: This, this, these, these effects, these, these injuries and deaths, they, they span, uh, American society. Uh, they're not limited to the military. In fact, we probably have fewer, uh, injuries, but the reason the DMA is important is because we need a win. The American [00:06:00] legal system, uh, leans very heavily on the twin principles of precedent and analogy.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And if we can find someone guilty in a court of law for harms caused by either forcing someone to. uh, receive the in the gene injections, uh, and be harmed or killed by them. Then, then there is almost no, uh, place we cannot go in the legal system. Uh, the, I think of the DMA as the, the mall that will split the law.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And, and the reason I think we should start here with, uh, admirals and generals have ordered subordinates to, uh, receive these experimental biologicals on pain of punishment under the UCMJ [00:07:00] or, uh, dismissal from military service with an other than honorable and even dishonorable punishment. uh, characterization of service, which will have lifelong, uh, impact on a person's employability.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So there were many members who, under threat of these, these, uh, adverse actions against them, did take the, uh, indectable genes. They were harmed thereby or killed. And so I guess what I, what I wanted to do is first, uh, go through with you how we know that these, these injuries have occurred. And I'm in preventive medicine and one of the large areas of our, our discipline is, is epidemiology.
Dr. Chris Clagett: The nice thing about epidemiology is that it sometimes allow us, allows us [00:08:00] to understand that a phenomenon is there. and is happening without being fully, uh, cognizant, having fully identified the mechanism of the phenomenon. So, the, the epidemiology, uh, makes, uh, the case for these harms. I'll give you, I'll give you, uh, an example, a historical example, personal, uh, that I was involved in, how the epidemiology makes the case.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, May 2010, we had a small detachment of CBs, 20 people, In the Camorra Islands, that's a small archipelago, uh, between Madagascar and, uh, the African continent. They were there to build a school for the locals. win hearts and minds, that kind of thing. Uh, so May 2010. Now, important history backing up from that was that in [00:09:00] December 2009, right before Christmas, we had a CB from the same task force, uh, who was medevaced to, I think it was, uh, Ramstein, Germany, or Landstuhl actually is the major medical center there.
Dr. Chris Clagett: with malaria. Uh, he had been, uh, I can't remember where he was deployed to, where he acquired his malaria. He, uh, went to sick call with the usual, uh, prodrome for malaria, very vague headache, a little fever, maybe. Maybe, maybe not even a fever, but headache didn't feel good. They gave him, uh, Motrin for headache and then sent him back to his barracks S.
Dr. Chris Clagett: I. Q. for a day. Come back and see us tomorrow if you're not better. He was found the next day unresponsive in his room. He was medevaced to where he died one week later of cerebral malaria with, uh, Basically, [00:10:00] no circulation above, above this point of his head and his anti malarial medications were in his pocket.
Dr. Chris Clagett: He wasn't taking his pills. So fast forward to May, 2010, the, uh, CBs from the same task force are deploying again, they go to Comoros Islands, it's known that there's malaria there and the independent duty corpsman. has been taught knows that he's the fall guy if anybody gets malaria. So he's got a color coded spreadsheet by name and date and color coded by, you know, which antimalarial they were taking.
Dr. Chris Clagett: We used a combination of mefloquine and hydroxycycline and he was recording, he was literally watching people swallow their pills. Nevertheless, uh, after they'd been there a few months, uh, a couple of them got sick. Now, uh, falciparum malaria can give you almost any [00:11:00] symptom constellation, depending on where in the body those parasites go.
Dr. Chris Clagett: They went to the Host Nation Lab. The Host Nation Lab did a, uh, uh, they took a finger stick, got a thick and thin smear, looked at it, and they said, we see malaria parasites in the blood. They, then they got a bunch of people tested. And, uh, the Host Nation Lab said that they saw four or five more people.
Dr. Chris Clagett: that had parasites in the blood and even quantified the parasitemia. So they were all medevacked back to Djibouti where they came out of. And, uh, I was, uh, sent, uh, to go do the on scene investigation. By the time they got, by the time I met them, they were all clinically resolved. Um, one of our, one of our preventive medicine units swooped in, grabbed some blood, took it back to the research lab in Cairo and, uh, where they, when they ran.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, blood [00:12:00] looking for, uh, antigens. They found 13 of the 20. Uh, no, 8, 8 of the 20 had detectable plasmodium antigens and 13 of the 20 had detectable plasmodial DNA. So they were running PCR and, and people up and down Europe and the East coast of the U. S. were all hyperventilated that, you know, we got more malaria again.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So I, this is where the epidemiology comes in. Again, these guys are all healthy by the time I meet them. This is a record review. So I, I, I find that these guys have been trickling into country over a period of, uh, took a couple of months. And interestingly, their symptoms all began within 40, a 48 hour window, two days, a two day span Monday through Wednesday.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And And then I looked at, you know, what symptoms did [00:13:00] people have? Interestingly, none of them had a fever. That's the number one symptom for malaria. Number one. Uh, it's almost, it's almost a sine qua non, uh, which is Latin for without which not. And none of them had a fever. They'd all been there. for months.
Dr. Chris Clagett: They're a bunch of more smokers. They would go out at night getting, getting their last cigarette before bedtime. So they had asynchronous, asynchronous exposure. Now in the United States, we've had cases of, um, synchronized onset of malaria, but these were all like Boy Scout jamborees and symptom onset was synchronized.
Dr. Chris Clagett: But then you go back in time and you find out that exposure was synchronized. You were all out in the woods, Southeastern United States, Southeastern US used to be a malarious area. And they would, and, and so they, they all had symptom onset, uh, within a very narrow window. [00:14:00] And so we had, we had just kind of a similar symptom onset with these CBs, except that exposure was not, was not synchronous.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So basically, bottom line, jumping down to it, there's basically epidemiology and the fact that none of them have fever. showed me that what they had with a gastrointestinal constellation of symptoms was they, they went out to eat in town and they got food poisoning. It was the malaria, then it was the, the epidemiology that made it.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So with the, with the epidemiology now looking at COVID and we look at all cause mortality, Because a lot of national data sets are corrupted by misattribution of, of cause of death. You can misattribute or genuinely err in the, uh, presumed cause of death, but there's no mistaking the corpse. You've got to, you have a dead person.[00:15:00]
Dr. Chris Clagett: So the, uh, national data sets being corrupted, the thing to look at is all cause of death or all cause mortality. We're going to look at, we're going to look at a couple of countries. We're going to look at, uh, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. I'm going to show you how all cause mortality kind of leads us to, um, well, it leads us to conclusions.
Dr. Chris Clagett: We'll discuss the data as we look at them. So I'm going to, with your permission, uh, Sam, I'm going to go ahead and share my, my first slot, uh, screen.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Okay, and we're going to share the window and share.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Okay, this is all caused mortality over a decade in New Zealand. [00:16:00] Now, if you remember, New Zealand was practically a hermit kingdom. They had severe lockdowns, uh, and they had universal vaccination. Now, here is, of course, the pandemic year. 2020. If we look left, we see that all cause mortality is slowly rising, basically in, in, uh, alignment with, uh, slowly increasing national population.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Interestingly, the pandemic year was, uh, lower than, uh, many of the, uh, the pre pandemic years. The first, the, the preceding three pandemic years. Okay. With the, uh, the, uh, SARS CoV 2 being touted as the, uh, the new Black Death, 2020 should have been much worse. But then, okay, so what [00:17:00] happened to 2021? The, the vaccines rolled out in January of that year, okay?
Dr. Chris Clagett: So, 2021 is about a 15, this is about a 15 percent increase, uh, No, that's not quite right. It's not 15%. I would have to redo the math. Uh, from 2020, and then you will see from 2020 to 2022, all cause mortality accelerates. So we should be, we should be seeing a reduction. If these injections, the gene injections are protective, we should be seeing a reduction in all cause mortality, or at least a return to, uh, the baseline trend, but that's not what happened.
Dr. Chris Clagett: We are, we are in an acceleration period. And then if we zoom in, I'm going to stop sharing this and share a different slide.[00:18:00]
Dr. Chris Clagett: We're going to look at how the, uh, how the New Zealand all cause mortality breaks down by vaccination status. These are, this is, uh, this is New Zealand government data that I'm showing you. Okay. Now, let's see. So, um, Yes, so the unvaccinated. Now, at first blush, this looks actually horrible for the vaccines, which we have to remember that the, the, the, the population is almost universally vaccinated.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, very few New Zealanders successfully held out. So the important thing to look at is where, um, the, the proportion of these people, these individual groups, the fully vaccinated, [00:19:00] the boosted and the unvaccinated in comparison to their proportion in the population. Unfortunately, the New Zealand data do not give that to us in, in this chart, but I'm going to tell you that this chart mirrors what I'm going to show next, which we're going to jump over to the UK.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Okay. And so I'm going to stop sharing this one. And then switch over to the UK. Well, the reason for showing you multiple countries is because this is not a phenomenon isolated to one country share.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Okay. Um, I was going to start with one, but we'll start with two. This is in the UK. This is people who got. Two shots or more. And now you see here in [00:20:00] January, 2021, this is of course where the vaccines rolled out and then the proportion of the population and the proportion of the populations on the left.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Okay. The proportion of the population that have two shots now. So this is the proportion of the population has two or more vaccine shots. And this down here, this is the percentage of the population that are unvaccinated completely. The bottom curve is the proportion of the population that's unvaccinated as a portion of all cause mortality.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So we don't see, we don't see numbers of all cause mortality here. These are proportions. And the top line, this is the percentage of people 18 and over who got two shots as a percentage of all cause mortality. [00:21:00] Now the thing here is that to look at the difference in proportions, okay, 18 and overs that got two shots are 78.
Dr. Chris Clagett: 7 percent of the population, uh, at the far right, but they are 96 percent of the population. of all cause mortality. In other words, they are overrepresented among all cause mortality. These data are truly beautiful. This is, and I'll tell you, these are official government data, but the, the office of national statistics in the UK did not prepare this slide.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Raw numbers were taken off the UK website and used to prepare this slide. At the other end, the unvaccinated are 18 and a half percent. of population, but only 3. 3 percent of all cause mortality. They are underrepresented among all cause mortality. Now I'm gonna, that's gotta, let's see what [00:22:00] we got in.
Dr. Chris Clagett: There's a number to remember. These two curves are gonna be the same in the next slide. We're gonna look at people that got three shots. Let's see, and 96 percent minus, uh, 78. 9%, that's, uh, uh, 96 to 79 would be, uh, 27. Oh, bleh, old brain, getting tired. Um, 96 would be, that's 20%. Subtract another 1. 7%. So they are 18.
Dr. Chris Clagett: 3%. They're overrepresented by 18. 3%, right? Can I ask you a question? And now we're going to look at three. Yeah, go ahead.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Where are you going? So this 18 and up, they are, they're making up, they're overrepresented by 96 percent of the overall, uh, all cause mortality. If we looked at, and I don't know if you've, you've done this, but if we looked at the years before, what was that age group before?
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Was that, [00:23:00] cause that age group, I wonder if there was a higher death rate in that age group. Is it just 18 and up till now? Until infinity, or is it 18 to 65, or is it 18 to 50 something?
Dr. Chris Clagett: 18 and up, 18 to infinity.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Okay. Because I wonder if there was a larger rate of death in a certain age group, and I don't know if you're going to get into that later.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But that would be very interesting to see.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Um, let's see. Um, Uh, those be, I think the German data, um, would be better for that, um, I would kneel on a haystack among my files. I did not prepare to, uh, share those charts. Um, but so I, I did the map. It's um, so they are overrepresented. 18 and over are overrepresented by 17.
Dr. Chris Clagett: 3 percent. So stop sharing this one. Toggle over. Share new file. [00:24:00] Yes. Okay. So we have the unvaccinated. Same down below. And now we have The proportion of people that got three shots, only 65 percent of the UK 18 and overs got three shots, but they are 91 and a half percent of all cause mortality. Now that superficially looks like, well, they're doing better because the people that got two shots were 90.
Dr. Chris Clagett: 6%, but that's not the calculation that we make. We make, let's see, 91 point 0.5, eh dang it. Clear menu, 1.5 minus 65, 91 point.
Dr. Chris Clagett: There's the difference here is 26.5%. And so the delta here [00:25:00] is larger than it was with people who only got two shots. And the delta for people that got two shots was larger than the delta of people who only got one shot. So what this, this beautifully illustrates to us is that there is a dose response curve between all cause mortality and vaccination shot by shot.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Only the UK data actually, uh, illustrate this, uh, this, this beautifully. Um, and because they, uh, ONS in the UK made it possible to, to compare VAX status, uh, to mortality. They kept records on who's vaccinated and how many. Here in the U. S., we stopped, we stopped keeping records on, um, who's getting shots, uh, because the CDC does not want those data.[00:26:00]
Dr. Chris Clagett: But I'm going to stop sharing this screen. What these, um,
Dr. Chris Clagett: you know, this is a humorous story. I actually had a physician out in Utah, state of Utah, and he's, he's well known on the internet. Uh, argue with me that, uh, state of Utah data show a reduction in all cause mortality among the vaccinated compared to the unvaccinated. Now, if you want to, if you wanted to make the case that the, the gene injections caused a reduction in cause specific mortality, COVID 19 mortality, that's certainly believable.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, we expect that measles, mumps, rubella is going to reduce mortality to measles, mumps, and rubella.
Dr. Chris Clagett: How would, how would getting, uh, an injection with a, a gene that is [00:27:00] intended to immunize us against COVID 19, SARS CoV 2, how is that supposed to protect me from cancer, uh, pneumonia? uh, heart attack, motor vehicle accident, drowning, all cause mortality. He actually claimed that all cause mortality was lower in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated.
Dr. Chris Clagett: It makes no sense. It's, it's completely medically implausible. So what we can say is that the, uh, data in the state of Utah are somehow corrupted. We don't know how, but they're corrupted. But, uh, the UK and New Zealand data conclusively show us that, uh, that all cause mortality has climbed. When it should have declined and, uh, in New Zealand, because they, that chart extended back past the, uh, pandemic year.
Dr. Chris Clagett: We could see that the pandemic [00:28:00] year was actually a low mortality year. And, and that, that pattern holds. That pattern holds across Europe as well. Uh, not sure that the U. S. data, uh, I can't remember if I've seen them, frankly. I've cut so much, but, uh, so we can say that the, uh, the mortality is, uh, uh, there's a, uh, there's a statistician in the U S that says that, uh, cancer mortality, you asked about cancer early on, uh, in, in this interview, cancer mortality is up among the young by 20 Sigma.
Dr. Chris Clagett: 20 standard deviations. It's, it's beyond astronomical.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Can you explain standard deviation for a second and how the typical chart, what that looks like, so that people can have a comprehension of what that means?
Dr. Chris Clagett: Roger. Most people are familiar with, you know, the, [00:29:00] the, the bell curve. Okay, so when, so we, we divide bell curves, or just statistical distributions into, um, standard deviations.
Dr. Chris Clagett: A standard deviation is a degree of variance. And we usually do it from the mean, the middle. The, in a standard curve, uh, two standard deviations on either side of the mean will encompass ninety five percent of the entire curve, leaving two and a half percent at each tail. Three standard deviations, uh, encompasses ninety nine, and I think maybe percent, uh, more than ninety nine percent.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So there's 1 percent divided between each of the two tails. When we talk about four standard deviations, now we are [00:30:00] out in, uh, one part per 10, 000 in, of the, of the entire distribution. That's four standard deviations. The statistician was claiming 20 standard deviations. This is, and interestingly, he said, and the CDC is hiding it.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Why, how is the CDC hiding this? By lumping increasing cancers among the young who have, and the reason there's room for them to have a 20 standard deviation, uh, increase in cancer is because cancer in the young young adults is so low to begin with. So it's a 20 standard deviation increase still makes relatively few people on an absolute count terms.
Dr. Chris Clagett: getting cancer. Uh, across the human population, cancer, uh, [00:31:00] cancer, uh, varies. It's bimodal. There's a peak in early childhood, and then it declines, and then, and then it's low throughout young adult, and then slowly starts to go up in increasing old age. So, uh, The young are having an enormous increase in cancer, but it's hidden because the mortality among the, the elderly who are disproportionately affected in the pandemic year, their, their cancer mortality right now is low.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Because that those age bands of the population were kind of depleted relatively, they were relatively depleted. So CDC will say, yeah, we have a little bit of an increase in, uh, in cancer. You don't see it because they're lumping a group that is having, uh, [00:32:00] uh, an abnormal reduction in cancer because of mortality from COVID.
Dr. Chris Clagett: In with a, in with a group that had a very low, uh, COVID mortality, but is having now increasing, uh, cancer due to the gene injections.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So what you're saying is the elderly population, we're not seeing the deaths there from cancer because they all died during COVID. And now we're starting to see an equalization of deaths from cancer, but it's coming from a different group.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's coming from the younger population that shouldn't be getting this great rate of cancer.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Exactly. Great. Exactly. They're hiding it. And, uh, so we, you talked about, you know, mechanisms by which the injectable genes cause cancer. I don't have the list in front of me. There's, I think I can tick off seven.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Um, the one mechanism by which they, they outright cause cancer is by reverse [00:33:00] integration into the, the chromosomes, the, the nuclear genome, our, our, our chromosome, uh, our, our, our nuclear genome. is a, is a fantastically complicated thing. We're barely scratching the surface of it. Uh, a, a, a gene, let's say it codes for, uh, uh, the synthesis of a protein, say the protein's a thousand amino acids long.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So the gene is 3, 000 nucleotides long. Uh, that 3, 000 nucleotide What's the term? Intron, I think, could be surrounded by 50, 000 nucleotides of regulatory nucleotides, regulatory sequence, and the, and genes regulate adjacent [00:34:00] genes. It's amazingly complex. And so if you insert a gene that for, that codes for a foreign protein somewhere into the genome, the problem is one, you cannot control the location of the, of the integration.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And this is why gene therapy has always, always, always failed. They can't control the site of integration. Gene therapy is associated with cancer. You're nodding your head. I think you're familiar with this. It's associated with cancer. So if you, if you happen to hit, uh, one of the, one of the actual genes, and it's in this, so this, this foreign gene is, is encoded into it.
Dr. Chris Clagett: It's spliced in. One, you destroy that one functional gene. [00:35:00] And two, you're going to disrupt the, the regulation of nearby genes. Gene expression is so tightly controlled, even among our normal genes, that the overexpression of a gene or an underexpression of a gene are both associated with cancer. It's an amazingly fine tuned apparatus, and so cannot control the gene.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, the point of insertion, almost guaranteed cancer.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Then there are half a dozen mechanisms by which the gene injections will promote cancer. They don't directly cause it, but they could promote it. And this could be a cancer that the gene injection did not directly. Cause let's say you, you had a malignant transformation of some random cell. This happens to us all the time.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Our t lymphocyte line is especially involved in tumor [00:36:00] surveillance and suppression. They, they, they go out, they surveil for and destroy malignantly transformed cells and other abnormal cells, virally infected cells, physiologically stressed cells. Uh, they, they get destroyed. by our, by our, uh, lymphocytic line, CD8, uh, uh, positive T lymphocytes and natural killer cells.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So, uh, what they, what, uh, mechanism one, P53. The spike protein has the nuclear localization sequence. That's a 7 amino acid sequence that basically is like a passkey into the nucleus of the cell. It basically says, open says me. Now a 7 amino acid peptide, that's an amazingly specific, uh, [00:37:00] sequence, uh, with a universe of 20 amino acids to choose from.
Dr. Chris Clagett: The odds of randomly producing Any given seven amino acid peptide is one in 1.28 billion. So this, this nuclear pass key is very specific and the, the spike has it, the, the engineers put it in. So the spike protein is capable of translocating into the nucleus where it binds with this protein called P 53, which is our cells, our nucleuses main DNA repair protein.
Dr. Chris Clagett: DNA repair is an amazingly, amazing process in a three, uh, giga base pair, uh, genome. How does the nucleus know where DNA damage has occurred? [00:38:00] Well, and this, this is like, uh, new data as of, uh, 2017. new developments. The DNA strand is like a, a hyperconductor. So a, a charge donating molecule binds to one end of it, and at the speed of light, uh, this charge propagates along the strand and is removed at the other end.
Dr. Chris Clagett: If, uh, x rays, chemical stress has produced a break, in the, the DNA strands somewhere. Charge is going to be, is begin accumulating. That's how the nucleus repair mechanism knows where to go in a three giga, three billion base pair genome. It goes there and it repairs the protein, the DNA. The spike [00:39:00] binds to p53, this, the nucleus's main DNA repair protein, and it suppresses p53 by 90%.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So spontaneously occurring, um, malignant transformation from, from DNA damage. You know, we're subjected to 300 millirem of natural background radiation every year. You know, you go to the dentist, you get a few more millirem. You get a chest ray, you get a few more millirem. You've got natural radioisotopes inside your body.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Potassium 40, it's ubiquitous. You can't get away from it. We're subjected to radiation. So, we have, we have a designed mechanism to fix that. P53 disables it by 90%. There, uh, the spike disables P53 by 90%. How else? Let's see. The, the, the gene injections disable, [00:40:00] well, they promote, uh, IgG4, uh, transformation.
Dr. Chris Clagett: You're familiar with this, Sam.
Dr. Chris Clagett: I'll, I'll start from the beginning for the audience. We have multiple classes of, uh, immunoglobulin antibody. We call 'em IG for short. IG class, class A, class E, class G, class M, IgG, ig. Class G is one of our main antibodies. It's your memory antibody. It's uh, the, one of their main antibodies that we use to survey.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, against, uh, re infection with, uh, past experienced viruses. So when, when you've gotten, uh, immunizations in the past, the whole point is to build up an IgG response. IgG is conveniently subdivided into four subclasses, conveniently named one through four. IgG 1, 2, and [00:41:00] 3, uh, destroy things. Uh, 1, uh, goes after mainly tumors.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Um, uh, IgG 2 goes after, uh, environmental things like bee venom, other stuff. Stuff you need to clean up, but not urgently. IgG 3 is your main antivirus, uh, antibody. And it also does, I think, a little work on, on, uh, malignant cells. IgG4 is special. IgG4 is your immunotolerance antibody. It's what you, it's what you direct against environmental irritants like pollens, pet danders, peanut protein.
Dr. Chris Clagett: You've, you've probably all seen the news in recent years. Uh, where, uh, kids have peanut allergies. Mom never gave them PBJs as a kid. She should have. Give your kids [00:42:00] PBJs. So, uh, it, IgG4 prevents us from mounting an inflammatory reaction against things that don't need an inflammatory reaction. But IgG4 is, IgG4, we, we, we mount this when we see something frequently and in large quantity.
Dr. Chris Clagett: peanut protein, pollens, bat danders. It's a very bad thing to direct against a replicating virus. Here's the problem. The induce, the gene injections induce so much spike production in the body.
Dr. Chris Clagett: The immune system treats it like an environmental irritant and switches to class four. Uh, the, the genes for the, all four classes are in sequence within the plasma cell that makes antibodies. And when, when the cell, the [00:43:00] plasma cell decides it needs to switch, it basically clips out the, the gene and it can't go back.
Dr. Chris Clagett: It clips out one, two, and three. And then the only thing left it can make is IgG4.
Dr. Chris Clagett: IgG4 is a blocking antibody. So, uh, IgG is basically a Y shaped molecule. The fork binds to the target, the virus, the tumor cell. The stem, out the other way, is the command to the immune effector cell. For IgG1, 2, and 3, it says, destroy the Destroy what's ever on this end of the molecule, the 4 cat. IgG4 says do nothing with it.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So when, when IgG4,
Dr. Chris Clagett: go ahead.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Is this the mechanism of antibody dependent enhancement? [00:44:00]
Dr. Chris Clagett: No, that's a, no, that's a separate thing and it happens inside monocytes mainly. that I know of. Um, no, this is a completely separate thing. Um, but it would be actually, you might be able to consider it a form of antibody dependent enhancement because ADE is simply when the antibodies presence result in a, a higher back, a higher viral burden than would you would have had without the antibodies.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So I guess you, you could consider this a form of, of antibody dependent enhancement. So when the IgG4 binds to the, uh, the virus and it's, uh, it's stem is finding the other way, a immune effector cell that, you know, touches that says, They don't need to do anything with it, but its presence there prevents IgG3 [00:45:00] from binding to that same target.
Dr. Chris Clagett: IgG4 has another trick that it does, very interesting. So let's say you have an IgG3 that is, that is bound to the virus. And, and it's, it's, it's FC region is called friction, fraction crystallizable, which has the command of the immune effector cell would tell it to destroy it. IgG4 actually has the ability to come along and bind stem to stem.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So we've got IgG3 pointing one way on the target and the IgG fork pointing outward toward the immune effector cell. Now the immune effector cell does not recognize the fork of any antibody actually. The, so the, the stem, the FC region of the IgG3 is sterically inhibited, uh, sterically and hindered by the [00:46:00] IgG4.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So by these mechanisms, by this, by this stem to stem binding, IgG4 inhibits antibody dependent phagocytosis, which is where your Pac Man white cell comes along and, and, and gobbles stuff up. It inhibits antibody dependent cytotoxicity in which a, uh, a lymphocyte line cell or a natural killer cell comes along and fires a broadside of, uh, cytotoxic chemicals, um, granzyme, and, uh, foreign, uh, basically makes holes in the target cell, and then the granzyme goes in and, and chews stuff up.
Dr. Chris Clagett: The cell dies. IgG4 inhibits, uh, the function of antibody dependent cytotoxicity as well. It [00:47:00] also inhibits the function of anti, uh, uh, complement dependent cytotoxicity.
Dr. Chris Clagett: When, yes, when two, uh, antibodies bind to a target close together and their stems are closely approximated, Complement can come along and cross link them and then it will begin to do its, do its thing. And it will, it will attract, Complement will attract, uh, lymphocytes and, and Complement has another, uh, toxicity effect directly, but it attracts cytotoxic.
Dr. Chris Clagett: effects to that cell. So, um, it, it, it influences that. So that's, uh, three, four, four extracellular, well, two, two intranuclear effects. Now we have three extracellular effects. That's five. [00:48:00] Um, the gene injections increase, um, PD L1. PD L1 is called programmed death ligand 1. Our B cells that make antibodies and our T cells and our natural killer cells all have a receptor on them called PD 1, programmed death one.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And at low levels of PD 1 binding, PD L1 functions like the, the accelerator or brake on the car. More binding is like the brake on the, on the lymphocyte plasma cell, the, the, the natural killer cell. It tells it more, more binding. Take the day off. Less binding, work overtime. Put in some overtime. There's, [00:49:00] there's a, there's a medication, a new biological medication called Keytruda.
Dr. Chris Clagett: I can't remember the, the full, that's the brand name. Can't remember the full chemical name. It ends in A B for monoclonal antibody. It's the, it's an, it's a monoclonal antibody directed against PD L1. So it strips PD L1 off of all of the, the lymphocyte cells. And basically what it does, uh, it tries to tell the cells, kill them, kill them all.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And in a good percentage of the time, it works very well. Some people get a paradoxical reaction that's not good. which basically takes all the brains off of the cancer. But when it works as intended, it, uh, has worked, works very well. And it's been revolutionized the cancer, the treatment of malignant melanoma, I think is one is the first cancer that was used on with good effect.
Dr. Chris Clagett: The at high levels of binding [00:50:00] PD L1 does not tell the lymphocyte to take the day off. It tells the lymphocyte, go kill yourself. We've seen, we see high levels of PD L1 in very severe cases of SARS CoV 2 infection. And we see similar elevations of PD L1 after the gene injections. So you want to know why people are getting COVID repeatedly.
Dr. Chris Clagett: It's a combination of effects. We've now gone through four extracellular effects, two intranuclear effects, that's six. The last one is that the gene injections impair the activation of two lymphocyte cell lines, uh, both T cells, uh, the CD8 T cells, which are, uh, cytotoxic. [00:51:00] And the CD4 cells, which got some, some notoriety in HIV, CD4 cells activate plasma cells to make antibodies and they activate other T cells to go destroy stuff.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And the gene injections impair the activation of both of these populations of lymphocytes. So that's five extracellular mechanisms. So seven. mechanisms by which they can either directly cause or accelerate the growth of.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: What about oncoviruses like SV40 or simian virus 40?
Dr. Chris Clagett: Yes. So what people may or may not know. So and, and here's, and here was part of the, the Pfizer bait and switch [00:52:00] when they were doing the phase two, three combined trial, uh, the phases of which had never been combined before in the history of vaccinology. They produced, they produced the product used in the, uh, the volunteer populations with, uh, PCR.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Very pure process, but a very slow process. And what they, what they realized is that they could not, they could not produce doses at scale in the millions, hundreds of millions of doses. So they went to, oh, and they got the approval. They got FDA approval for the PCR process. That's important. But they never made that product outside of the, the phase two, three trial.
Dr. Chris Clagett: So in order to scale up to, uh, industrial, industrial quantities of doses, they, they switched to process two [00:53:00] where they, they put plasma DNA. A plasmid is a circle of DNA. It's stable and it is replication competent. And they, they infected, or they actually called transformed is the term. They transformed E.
Dr. Chris Clagett: coli bacteria. Now this plasmid Had a bunch of stuff in it. It had the full sequence to make the, the SARS CoV 2 spike, but it had other stuff as well. It had the, it had genes for resistance to two antibiotics. I think, uh, kanamycin and gentamicin. I think it was kanamycin and gentamicin. And, and, and it had a, it had this promoter from simian virus 40.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Simian virus 40 is a historical virus. It was a contaminant of early, uh, polio vaccines. Not all, not all doses, anywhere. [00:54:00] you know, they got made anywhere between 10 and 30 percent of batches were contaminated with this virus because the original material for the cell cultures came from homogenized monkey kidney and the monkeys had this virus.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Simian virus 40, uh, they, they didn't take the whole, genome of this virus, but they took a piece of it called the promoter and a promoter, uh, revs, the revs, the expression of the gene that is downstream from it. They, the antibiotics were necessary because when a, a bacteria divides, sometimes not all the progeny get a copy of the plasmid and they wanted all of their, their E.
Dr. Chris Clagett: coli. We want, they wanted to make sure all of their E. coli had the plasma. [00:55:00] So they, they put the, the genes for resistance to kanamycin and gentamicin in the plasmid. And then they grew the E. coli in the, in the presence of janamycin and kanamycin. So that if they didn't, if they didn't inherit the plasmid from the mother cell, that they, that they split off from, those E.
Dr. Chris Clagett: coli would die. So all their E. coli are producing this plasmid. And then, okay, industrial process, they get a lot of plasmid, they, they, they linearize it, they cut it, they turn it into a string instead of a ring, and then they're supposed to cut out the, the, the spike gene and only give people that. Well.
Dr. Chris Clagett: They weren't nearly as clean about that as they hoped they were. So what actually was in the Pfizer [00:56:00] and Moderna products was a lot of mRNA, much of which was fragmented. So you don't get an entire spike, you get a fragment of a protein, but that's a problem. We can go into that later if we have time. Um, but they also, some of that DNA was still, in plasmid form and it had the, and it would have the simian virus 40 promoter in it.
Dr. Chris Clagett: The simian virus promoter is, is important in, um, human cells because it seems to have, um, a universal nuclear localization property. There's a lab up at the, at the medical center of Rochester, New York, where this guy, uh, I can't remember his last name. It's not a long name. Anyway, this guy is uh, [00:57:00] the director, lab director.
Dr. Chris Clagett: His, his interest is gene therapy. And he has found that he, in order to get a gene into the nucleus of a cell, he needs to use different promoters depending on the target tissue, except for gene, except for simian virus 40 promoter, the simian virus 40 promoter. It's like a universal pass key. into the nucleus of a cell.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And what they write on their website is that it has, it has, it has worked on every tissue they've tested. And so the plasma DNA in the gene injections, it's a contaminant, has the ability to enter the nucleus of any cell in the body. So [00:58:00] the, the, the plant, the promoter itself is not an oncogene.
Dr. Chris Clagett: I, I, it's, it's going to bring, it's bringing in a foreign DNA. No good can come of that. I don't think it's possible right now with current knowledge to know what the effects of that are going to be. There's one other effect though that does concern me. I don't, nobody has proven it as far as I know.
Dr. Chris Clagett: We're being injected people. I didn't get the shot. We as a nation, as a world, we're being injected with this product that is contaminated with plasmid DNA. And if that plasmid DNA makes it into the gut, what is our gut filled with? What bacterium is our gut filled with? E. coli. When, when [00:59:00] bacteria meet, encounter a plasmid, they, they, they absorb it.
Dr. Chris Clagett: They take it in. It's, it's what they do. And they, and they trade plasmids. It's what they do.
Dr. Chris Clagett: If the plasmid gets into E. coli, then We have just transformed the gut bacteria into a, a perpetual spike production facility. It will never end. You would have to eradicate,
Dr. Chris Clagett: hold that thought, and then let's, and let's talk about that because that's an interesting idea, but you, you would, you would, you would generate perpetual spike production. Spike production and the only way to get rid of it would be to eradicate all bacteria in the gut. That's not going to be a good [01:00:00] process.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Now, let's see, you and I are getting this, how, um, pos me, posit me a
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: mechanism. If bacteria like e coli can share capsids, then what would prevent e coli from someone who's been injected? Then transferring into the water source, and then eventually getting into my gut, and then transferring that capsid to my bacteria.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: In a sense, making me into a spike protein factory, even though I never got the shot.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Um, uh, Theoretically, theoretically feasible. Let's see, but, uh, let's see, E. coli. Yeah, eco e coli, they, they survive the, they survive stomach passage. Not necessarily all of them, but some of them can survive. Stomach passage.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, you're right. It's, uh, it's, it's theoretically, it's theoretically possible [01:01:00] that, that we could get this by people who shed, who shed e coli and then give it to. We live in interesting times, um, makes, uh, well, water attractive. Yeah. Um, boy, I'd never really considered that mechanism of transfer before that, um, that's concerning.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I mean, I haven't been cut off like that in a while and we must be hitting a subject. Cause every time we talk about interesting subjects on this podcast, The internet gets cut for some reason. When I talk to lawyers about damage amongst the military, when I talk to a spouse, whose husband was harmed by not only the vaccine, but also his treatment, the military, um, the feed gets cut and we start talking about how, uh, it's important to be on well water and potentially even having a Berkey filter.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And this started to make sense why Berkey filters were driven out of business by the EPA. Um, Because if you can keep E. coli from getting in the water system, perhaps you can [01:02:00] keep these spike proteins from, uh, these spike factories from going into your body and then damaging the, the unvaxxed as well.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Which brings me back to the DMA. So these, these, these people have done great evil.
Dr. Chris Clagett: If we, if we win the next presidential election, and, uh, and it should be presidential. And he understands his appointment powers and how important his choice of service secretaries. is we can get service secretaries who have general court martial convening authority over admirals and generals four star the convening authority must [01:03:00] simply outrank the accused
Dr. Chris Clagett: and we can it won't be it wouldn't be trump sending them to prosecuting them it would be simply the military justice system which has the authority to recall even from retirement any officer for actions Committed while on active duty. If we can get a win with generals and admirals, then there is theoretically no limit to whom we cannot hold accountable for their malfeasance.
Dr. Chris Clagett: I would start next with CDC and FDA.
Dr. Chris Clagett: FDA for fraudulently approving these, these [01:04:00] products, CDC for hiding the, the safety signals, 700, almost 800 of them.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, then the, the, the floodgates for civil litigation and potentially criminal would be open to corporate types, people who under duress accepted the gene injections and were harmed. Thereby, or people who refused the gene injections and were ruined financially thereby, because they were fired for not, for refusing to take this experimental.
Dr. Chris Clagett: biological product. Uh, I personally would like to see state medical boards arraigned because they have [01:05:00] shaped the practice of medicine by threatening the ability of any physician to practice medicine. Should they prescribe the disapproved treatments of ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine
Dr. Chris Clagett: they're, they're guilty of death. They've caused deaths. Hospitals. There have been cases where, where people pleaded with hospitals and hospitalist physicians to treat their, their loved ones with uh, ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine and they were, their pleas fell on deaf ears. They were given rem svir instead and, and perpetuates and, uh, sedatives.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Midazolam, uh, I can't remember what class that is.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Benzodiazepine and morphine. [01:06:00]
Dr. Chris Clagett: And morphine. They, they, people were basically murdered. Um, it, it, it, it's broad. The, the DMA could be the log that splits the mall. The mall that splits the log, sorry. And, and if, and if we can succeed, that will be a glorious thing.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And one little caveat that I want to give to what you've said, because what you said is amazing, but even, even if let's say all this wasn't as it was, and there wasn't all this damage and no one was hurt, but yet the military still ordered. People to take this EUA product, that in itself, if it was safe as water even, that in itself, that very order was illegal from the start, and was a felony, and is a crime under UCMJ, and that, that code, U.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: S. code is 10 UFC 1107 alpha, making it illegal to, for any service [01:07:00] member to be required to participate in anything under EUA, so that's masking, um, That's testing, and that's the shots. That was illegal from the start. Then you heap upon all this injury that we've just been discussing for the last hour.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And it just, it seems that, and I want this through every legal avenue, but the death penalty may be in store for some.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And I think it would only be, you know, what would we do with someone who, you know, went into a shopping mall and murdered, you know, 50 people, or gunned them down. You know, like that guy from the Mandalay hotel at the music festival. Um, what would we do with somebody like that? The death penalty.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Yes.
Dr. Chris Clagett: I completely agree.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And, and you write the, uh, they're guilty of a felony, even if nobody was harmed, as you say, [01:08:00] even if it was all safe as water,
Dr. Chris Clagett: it
Dr. Chris Clagett: would be a much steeper climb to do, but legally. You're absolutely right. But the, but the harms are real. And I think it's the harms that make it imperative because people need justice.
Dr. Chris Clagett: And right now they've, they've been given them.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Dr. Claggett, Chris, thank you so much for being part of this fight. I am honored to stand shoulder to shoulder with you. And with everyone that's come on this and everyone that I've talked to about this issue and and it's it's truly an honor to be standing here with you.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Thank you Sam. A pleasure.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Likewise.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Is there a way people can reach out to you or do you have a website or do you have some way that people can help support you?
Dr. Chris Clagett: I, I do not have a website. I don't need support. I'm, I'm kind of a, I think of [01:09:00] a, as a minor player in this whole DMA effort, but I do have a Twitter account that I, I check pretty regularly.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Uh, it's at Dr. Claggett, 1G2Ts. Or X. Now, I don't think, some of us will never stop calling it Twitter. Uh, but they can, they can reach me there. I understand on the rules on Twitter is that we have to follow each other in order to do dms. But if you, you know, you make a post on one of my posts and I see it, and, uh, you, you wanna be friends.
Dr. Chris Clagett: I'm, I'm generally willing.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, thank you so much. I appreciate your, your fight and, and your passion in this subject. God bless you.
Dr. Chris Clagett: Thank you very much, Sam. Bless you.
Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just a reminder for everyone out there, duty uniform of the day. The full armor of [01:10:00] God, let's all make courage more contagious than fear.
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